Thread: Plea to classical music reviewers

Posts: 63
Page: prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 next

Post by brenda October 31, 2004 (31 of 63)
pann said:

Thank you Brenda.... I was seriously thinking about quit posting on this forum in fear of being ridiculed. I enjoy reading different views, but why should I take the risk of being ridiculed. .....It is 2004 now, there are still people not thinking this forum is globe. So, please make this site as open, tolerate as possible to all and make this site a fun place.

dear pann, thank you for your kind comments. You have made my day, though I was sad to read that you see ridicule coming. I totally agree with you that, in the final analysis, this site is about an entertainment (music) and so should be fun. I have always believed that music is a universal language. It should extend an equal welcome to users from all over the globe, and always seek to be inclusive. To be exclusive is to go against the very spirit of music.

I read your profile and see that you haven't posted any reviews in the last six months. Please think about posting more reviews. I for one am keen to "hear" your views, as those you've posted previously have been sane, sensible and well written.

Post by brenda October 31, 2004 (32 of 63)
DrOctodivx said:

Well, I took your cue and updated my profile. Honestly, when I first accessed this site I just was checking out the reviews and did not pay much attention to the profiles and did not notice most of the information that you could post there. Now that I am becoming more involved, I figured I might as well update it :)

On a side note, I tend to agree with Brenda that the rating system detracts from the site. I think the purpose of Amazon is quite different from ours. I think it was their way to deal with clutter since for some items there are simply way too many reviews. I do not feel this is a problem on this site - rather we should be encouraging more music lovers to speak out.

dear DrO, well said, - you are spot on. Amazon is a commercial site engaged in the business of selling product. My understanding is that this site is not fundamentally commercial in nature and although it "sells" connections to other sites and products, it is equally a community of people who love music and good sound in combination. We should, as you say, be "encouraging more music lovers" rather than discouraging them through ratings systems and (in some sad instances on this site) ridicule.

Post by jdaniel@jps.net October 31, 2004 (33 of 63)
brenda said:

dear flying, I don't see what harm this review did. Sure, it's not very helpful to long-time Vivaldi lovers but it may well come from someone just getting into classical music (which we want to encourage, surely) and/or whose english isn't very good (and I notice that the reviewer is based in Canton, China). Making such a fellow site user a figure of fun isn't very nice (and borders on racism in this case) - it could turn a person off the site, or off expressing their newly developing tastes and views or off trying to communicate in english. If I was the contributor you picked on, I'd feel upset and give up immediately. And judging by his profile, he gave up immediately after posting this review, and hasnt been back since.

Can I make a plea for greater tolerance of others' levels of musical or technical knowledge please, - this kind of post is a bit too aggressively male (forgive my sexism) and it's this kind of thing which nearly put me off registering in order to leave my first review. Believe me, leaving that first review takes some screwing up of courage and confidence if you're not an alpha male.

I'm surprised this site's webmaster hasn't had a word to you about your post. I thought this was a "collegiate" site, - please help make it so. No more slanging off at colleagues.

To catboy (the author) of the original review, - if you're still visiting the site, can I apologise on behalf of site users other than flying dutchan and hope that you'll eventually feel able to use the site without fear of this sort of thing happening again.

Oh Brenda, I'm a gay California Liberal male, but I find your apologia and suggestions of racism and sexism intolerable. I'm a musician, but a non-musician can certainly discuss speed, balance, etc.; this is all a reader askes for--to have some of his/her curiosities addressed with regard to a recording, technically or untechnically. The frustrating brevity of some people's reviews have nothing to do with lack of courage and everything to do with being un-prepared and/or ill-prepared, the site even provides guidelines for people before posting. Does one need to be courageous to say "way too fast for my tastes," or "the Philips CD I prefer is performed by..." All you're doing is enabling people to *not* do their best or at least casual best, (as it *is* supposed to be fun on here), by passing off readers' frustrations as racist or aggressive. A one-sentence review is laziness whatever the original language. *I* wouldn't have singled out one particular review, but whoever wrote this should be strong enough to take some critical feedback, which contained no ad hominem attacks. Anyone who is "collegiate" should be open and used to constructive critiques.

I've been begging people to tell me about the organ part in the Susskind/Holst "Planets." If someone wants to tell me in broken English that the part is "big" or "small" I would be *eternally* greatful. Anyone should be capable of this!

Post by LC October 31, 2004 (34 of 63)
brenda said:

...people like flying dutchman feel that it's okay to pour additional scorn on people with less knowledge than himself...

etc., etc...

I can appreciate the general view you are expressing here, and I certainly hope that everyone feels welcome at this site. On a review site that tends not to have dozens and dozens of reviews for any items, I don't think that reviews such as the infamous Vivaldi review ought to be deleted or banned or anything. And if someone actually went to the trouble of posting a thread specifically to make fun of someone's review, I'd probably not think very highly of that person.

However, your several comments about flyingdutchman above, alleging all sorts of things including exlusionary elitism and racism, do seem a bit excessive. The review in question is patently unhelpful. No one said it is an "unhelpful review by a stupid [insert epithet] who can't even speak English." It's just a plain old, ordinary unhelpful review. If the person does have any idea what he is talking about, he has not conveyed this in the sentence he has offered us, and it seems a bit of a stretch to think that he was really trying to make a useful contribution, summoning all his courage to overcome his trepidation at speaking his mind. So I don't think this comment was too big a deal.


I really have no feelings one way or the other about whether people should, or should be able to, rate the reviews as well as the recordings. My best guess about the Amazon system is that its real purpose is to have people create accounts and become used to consulting and interacting with the site (and hence feel more comfortable about clicking "Add to Cart").

Post by pann October 31, 2004 (35 of 63)
brenda said:

It should extend an equal welcome to users from all over the globe, and always seek to be inclusive. To be exclusive is to go against the very spirit of music.

I also would like to add that the inclusiveness should also extend to all age groups. I remember when I was very young (6 or 7?)the first time I heard the piano piece " A Maiden's Prayer", I thought it is music from heaven, I would like the whole world to share this my new found piece of music, if there was a music discussion forum at that time:) I hope this site will welcome 6 or 7 year old as well as a 67 year old like me. I like to see a youngster becomes a life-long music lover, in some ways, through the exposure to this site.

On a somewhat related subject (Brenda, the following has almost nothing to do with you. Sorry) one member talked about the "laziness". I am a lazy person by attributes. I am too lazy to go that post and reply, I am too lazy to make too many clicks.

I did, at least once, a one sentence review of Hahn's Bach Violin Concerti "Why in a hurry, Ms. Hahn?". I think it is helpful -- the readers would say hey someone thinks the tempi is too fast, hm. Besides, Stephen and some members of this site encourages (expressed in their past posts) such brief review.

In the mean time, please don't impose yours (no, Brenda, not you) onto my lazy attributes; Don't disturb me; I am enjoying it now :)

Post by zeus October 31, 2004 (36 of 63)
Here's my thoughts on the new review rating system:

1. There have been a few hundred ratings from a number of users thus far with more "Yes" than "No" votes. The uptake has been encouraging.

2. Everybody gets one vote. Clicking on "Yes" or "No" for the same review a number of times will only result in one vote, the last one. This means people can change their earlier rating at any time.

3. These are peer review ratings, not what I or any one individual thinks. I find some ratings hard to fathom, but think this will balance itself out in time. If others see a review that they deem is wrongly rated, it will likely spur them to counter with a rating of their own. I wouldn't be too discouraged.

4. If you've received a negative rating, you may want to look at what you've written and try to improve/expand on it. Reviews are never closed off. Nobody likes criticism but sometimes it's warranted.

5. This site has a worldwide focus and English is not everyone's first language. Some allowances should be made. It would be helpful here if people updated their user profiles accordingly.

6. Something concerning me for some time is that people don't know whether their efforts are appreciated, or even if their reviews are being read. The rating system addresses this by providing appropriate feedback, which will hopefully encourage more reviews.

7. The aim of all this is to encourage reviews that better meet the needs of the community here on this site. If in the end it doesn't then I'll pull it. But I want to give this a chance first.

Post by brenda October 31, 2004 (37 of 63)
zeus said:

Here's my thoughts on the new review rating system: 3. These are peer review ratings ....if others see a review that they deem is wrongly rated, it will likely spur them to counter with a rating of their own. .....I wouldn't be too discouraged. If you've received a negative rating, you may want to look at what you've written and try to improve/expand on it. ...5. This site has a worldwide focus and English is not everyone's first language. Some allowances should be made. It would be helpful here if people updated their user profiles accordingly.

dear zeus, i can see where you are coming from and find some of your reasoning quite persuasive. I still feel that ratings of what is basically a hobby are unnecessary but appreciate that you have given it a lot of thought so I guess I owe it to you to see how it works, too (as you suggest). Thanks for the posting, it was very helpful.

Post by brenda October 31, 2004 (38 of 63)
jdaniel@jps.net said:

Oh Brenda, I'm a gay California Liberal male, but I find your apologia and suggestions of racism and sexism intolerable. I'm a musician, but a non-musician can certainly discuss speed, balance, etc.; this is all a reader askes for--to have some of his/her curiosities addressed with regard to a recording, technically or untechnically. The frustrating brevity of some people's reviews have nothing to do with lack of courage and everything to do with being un-prepared and/or ill-prepared, the site even provides guidelines for people before posting. Does one need to be courageous to say "way too fast for my tastes," or "the Philips CD I prefer is performed by..." All you're doing is enabling people to *not* do their best or at least casual best, (as it *is* supposed to be fun on here), by passing off readers' frustrations as racist or aggressive. A one-sentence review is laziness whatever the original language. *I* wouldn't have singled out one particular review, but whoever wrote this should be strong enough to take some critical feedback, which contained no ad hominem attacks. Anyone who is "collegiate" should be open and used to constructive critiques.

I've been begging people to tell me about the organ part in the Susskind/Holst "Planets." If someone wants to tell me in broken English that the part is "big" or "small" I would be *eternally* greatful. Anyone should be capable of this!

dear jp, i am sorry you find my post "intolerable". I feel the same way about the needless scorn poured on "Catboy". I disagree with you for the principal reason that the author of the scorned Vivaldi review has a user profile. It clearly states that he is from Canton, China. That information was to hand when flyingdutchman made his jibe. That makes the jibe hard to excuse.

But what makes it so much worse is that Catboy's user profile features a forum post apologising for his poor english skills!!!!! That is just about the first thing you see when you click onto his profile. To then go on and insult his review and say that he doesn't know what he was talking about does suggest racism, I'm sorry to say. Either that or laziness in nor taking the trouble to read the profile before making the put-down, or just plain old insensitivty.

Secondly, you can easily ignore a review that doesn't suit your needs. What you DON'T do is needlessly insult the reviewer or pour scorn on them and their writing skills. And, despite what you say about no "ad honimem attacks", flying d. specifically said that the reviewer didn't know what he was talking about.

Can I also ask:
1) in the light of your posting, could you write more than a sentence in Cantonese? I know I couldn't, no matter how "well prepared" I was.
2) Also, could you read and fully understand site guidelines (and they are called guidelines not rules) if they were posted in a language other than your own, - say, Cantonese?
3) Surely, brevity is the sign of wit, not laziness.
4) Exactly what was constructive in flying d's one-sentence (and presumably lazy, by your definition) put down of the original reviewer? I saw no sign of constructive criticism, nor critical feedback, just cruel ridicule of another person and their english language skills (which they themselves had stated were poor) and their implied ignorance.

Snide putdowns should not be the language of this (or any other) forum.

Post by brenda October 31, 2004 (39 of 63)
LC said:

I can appreciate the general view you are expressing here, and I certainly hope that everyone feels welcome at this site. On a review site that tends not to have dozens and dozens of reviews for any items, I don't think that reviews such as the infamous Vivaldi review ought to be deleted or banned or anything. And if someone actually went to the trouble of posting a thread specifically to make fun of someone's review, I'd probably not think very highly of that person.

However, your several comments about flyingdutchman above, alleging all sorts of things including exlusionary elitism and racism, do seem a bit excessive. The review in question is patently unhelpful. No one said it is an "unhelpful review by a stupid [insert epithet] who can't even speak English." It's just a plain old, ordinary unhelpful review. If the person does have any idea what he is talking about, he has not conveyed this in the sentence he has offered us, and it seems a bit of a stretch to think that he was really trying to make a useful contribution, summoning all his courage to overcome his trepidation at speaking his mind. So I don't think this comment was too big a deal.


I really have no feelings one way or the other about whether people should, or should be able to, rate the reviews as well as the recordings. My best guess about the Amazon system is that its real purpose is to have people create accounts and become used to consulting and interacting with the site (and hence feel more comfortable about clicking "Add to Cart").

dear LC, thank you for your post. You are probably right to say that some of my comments might be excessive. You may also be right to imply that I may have read too much into flying d's post. That is quite possible. I find as I get older that I am getting less and less tolerant of what seems like intolerance in others. I suspect that I may be turning into one of those middle aged spinsters who writes strange, angry letters to the local paper. If that is the case, then I hope I retain enough sense to take myself out and shoot me.

First, my use of the term "racism". The author of the scorned Vivaldi review has a user profile. It clearly states that he is from Canton, China. That information was to hand when flyingdutchman made his jibe. That makes the jibe hard to excuse.

But what makes it so much worse is that Catboy's user profile features a forum post apologising for his poor english skills!!!!! That is just about the first thing you see when you click onto his profile. To then go on and insult his review and say that he doesn't know what he is talking about is To then go on and insult his review and say that he doesn't know what he was talking about does suggest racism, I'm sorry to say. Either that or flyingd's own laziness in not taking the trouble to read the profile before making the put-down, or just plain old insensitivty.

I can appreciate that some reviews can be "unhelpful". I can appreciate that some reviewers might not know what they are talking about (and I certainly include myself, - I have many musical blindspots and even more areas of technological ignorance). But neither of those things should be a cause for singling out a contributor for scorn or for point scoring?

If a review is unhelpful, then surely we can just read it and move on. What harm does it do anyone? Surely not enough to lead to put-downs? Can't we just relax, ignore it and move onto the next review. If the price of inclusivity and welcome is to put up with a few "wasted" milli-seconds, then surely its not too high? Eventually, new users will get the message about the standards their peers on the site seek, and will, in most cases, endeavour to meet them, - but give them a chance to do so.

By the way, I would have preferred to ask flying d. about his post before "going public" as it were, but his profile doesn't provide an email address. So I couldn't. I notice that most contributors don't provide email addresses for 1-1s, - maybe that's why forums become venues for flame wars?

Post by flyingdutchman October 31, 2004 (40 of 63)
Brenda,

"What you DON'T do is needlessly insult the reviewer or pour scorn on them and their writing skills. And, despite what you say about no "ad honimem attacks", flying d. specifically said that the reviewer didn't know what he was talking about."

"To then go on and insult his review and say that he doesn't know what he is talking about is To then go on and insult his review and say that he doesn't know what he was talking about does suggest racism, I'm sorry to say. Either that or flyingd's own laziness in not taking the trouble to read the profile before making the put-down, or just plain old insensitivty."


Before you claim insensitivity, racism, or laziness on my part, look at your own ability to decipher what I said not WHAT YOU PRESUME I SAID. There was no putdown on the person's abilities in English, only their inability to write more about the performance and sound of a recording. Whether that was in poor English or Oxford proper English didn't matter to me.

You obviously read way too much in my post. Nothing was there to insinuate anything regarding a person's ability or lack of ability in expressing themselves in English. Nothing at all. And before you call me a racist, realize that I work and live in Japan and have enjoyed doing so for the past 10 years. My wife is Japanese and I teach English to Japanese citizens for a living. I am very tolerant toward inaccurate English since I know there are many friends and family who have to be tolerant of my often inaccurate Japanese.

My "jibe" as you call it is only a call for people to say more about their reviews than just "this is good but my friend says one is better."

Before you sit there and call me a racist simply by my comment of wanting less of the one line reviews that don't say anything about a performance or its sound look at the review again. The intolerance toward people (as people in general) seems to come from you--not from me. As for leaving my email for you or anyone to read, forget it. I don't do that at any site I frequent. I don't want spammers sending me spam

Page: prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 next

Closed