Thread: Anyone recommend an inexpensive preamplifier that can handle 5.1 for SACD ?

Posts: 22
Page: prev 1 2 3 next

Post by david elias September 16, 2004 (11 of 22)
DrOctodivx said:

My main complaint about that unit (which is not true of either the the Adcom 830 or the TA-P900ES) is the lack of individual channel trims in bypass mode - there is only one main trim control.

I checked the trim controls on my 950 unit in bypass mode and verified that they work on all 3 configurations when playing a hybrid mch sacd (mine!)...I had trim control on all 5 channels from -15db to +10db.

Other channels not available in my configuration but under the same control were sub-woofer, right back and left back.

Perhaps this is a new feature, but I am sure it is operating on my unit in bypass mode on both SACD stereo and multichannel playback as well as the hybrid redbook layer.

Hope this helps - David

Post by minimalist999 September 16, 2004 (12 of 22)
DrOctodivx said:

I am unsatisfied with my current pre-amplifier which I believe has digital processing built in. I am looking for one which has pass through 5.1 analog audio with minimum distortion for a reasonable price. I need no bells and whistles such as DSP processing or DTS/AC3 decoding - I just want to provide volume controld for my SACD player and nothing else.

The best I can find so far is the ADCOM GTP-830 (btw, any feedback on this unit is also appreciated) which I can find for about $924 (list is $1200), but I would prefer spending significantly less, especially since I really need minimum capabilities, just high quality analog only volume control for a 5.1 source...

Update: I have also found the Outlaw 950, which lists for $799 but can be found for around $550. Any feedback on this units performance also appreciated.

I have the same problem with my Sony TA-E9000ES. I am building an analog preamp for 5.1 signals. The preamp has a straight-through mode with no active components in the signal path, only relays. If volume control is needed for other 5.1 sources, the signal goes through a high quality purely analog master-volume/balance circuit. One of three sets of 5.1 inputs can be selected by front push buttons.

The cost of building extra copies will not be more than $350.

Post by DrOctodivx September 16, 2004 (13 of 22)
david elias said:

I had trim control on all 5 channels from -15db to +10db.

So much useful feedback...

Actually, my statement concerning individual trim controls was based on feedback from customer support who indicated to me that in bypass mode all channels went directly the main trim - perhaps customer support itself is mistaken - I will dig up the email they sent me again.

I don't have an actual reference unit to play with so I am basing my information on what I can dig up on the net. One other question I had on this unit is the fact that they say that even in bypass mode they sum all the bass info below a certain frequeny from all the channels and send it to their subwoofer out. This confuses me since does this imply there is a separate bass out for the bypass mode different from the subwoofer out ? Or do they mix it into the .1 channel coming from the SACD player (which would seem undesirable) ? Do you have any feed back on this ?

Also, for regular CDs through a digital input, how are the various music modes (I noticed the Outlaw 950 had several interesting music modes - currently I use an outboard ambisonic processor since I like it much better than the DSP effects on most preamplifiers/receivers - but wouldn't mind an integrated replacement if it was as satisfying as the ambisonic).

Your SACD disc "The Window" has very good reviews and I am inclined to pick up a copy - though I will listen to the MP3 renditions of your tracks tonight from home that are available on cdbaby.com.

Post by DrOctodivx September 16, 2004 (14 of 22)
Here is the email I got back from outlaw customer support - which seems to me to indicate that they are saying that they do not have individual channel trim in byass mode - though it is always possible I am misreading him...

"Hello Karl,

The 950's channel trim is global for all sources including the Direct inputs. A properly calibrated system should yield excellent results with any source, however should you need to adjust the player's output, most multichannel players have individual channel trim settings

Please let me know if you have any further questions or concerns.

Best Regards,

Steve"

Post by david elias September 16, 2004 (15 of 22)
DrOctodivx said:

So much useful feedback...

Actually, my statement concerning individual trim controls was based on feedback from customer support who indicated to me that in bypass mode all channels went directly the main trim - perhaps customer support itself is mistaken - I will dig up the email they sent me again.

I don't have an actual reference unit to play with so I am basing my information on what I can dig up on the net. One other question I had on this unit is the fact that they say that even in bypass mode they sum all the bass info below a certain frequeny from all the channels and send it to their subwoofer out. This confuses me since does this imply there is a separate bass out for the bypass mode different from the subwoofer out ? Or do they mix it into the .1 channel coming from the SACD player (which would seem undesirable) ? Do you have any feed back on this ?

Also, for regular CDs through a digital input, how are the various music modes (I noticed the Outlaw 950 had several interesting music modes - currently I use an outboard ambisonic processor since I like it much better than the DSP effects on most preamplifiers/receivers - but wouldn't mind an integrated replacement if it was as satisfying as the ambisonic).

Your SACD disc "The Window" has very good reviews and I am inclined to pick up a copy - though I will listen to the MP3 renditions of your tracks tonight from home that are available on cdbaby.com.

to try to answer your last post questions and comments...

- the direct bypass mode supported individual trim controls on all channels -15db to +10

- the LFE .1 output can be bypassed with a toggle switch on the back. i am using this setting. i believe there are 3 optional cutoff crossover frequencies to choose if you want to use a subwoofer (which i don't have). since i have this toggle setting "off", the option for trim control on subwoofer was "none" (similar to "left back" and "right back" for a 7.1 system). there is no separate "bass out" for the bypass mode. i'm not 100% sure if they mix anything from the .1 channel but doubt it. as far as i know, i'm just hearing the 5 channels through my 5 speakers. i can try to check this out a little more later. they also have the full user manual online if you want to check there at http://www.outlawaudio.com

- i stay away from all "music modes" and haven't investigated them. as you probably know, this unit is setup for DVD using ProLogic II with all kinds of options there too. Direct Bypass for CD/SACD is the only thing I've listened to on the 950. I don't currently have it hooked up for DVD but plan to soon. i think the user guide will tell you much more about this than i know offhand.

- some of the better places to hear cuts from 'the window' are online at http://www.besonic.com/davidelias and http://www.songplanet.com/davidelias

i say that because these are the entire songs in a hi-res (128K) MP3 format. i love cd baby, but they put short previews in a funky low-res format to preview the songs. if you have broadband to the internet, you should listen on the HiFi links on other web sites because they sound pretty good through any external computer speakers. (that's one of my big arguments for why everyone should record to DSD!!!)

best regards,
- david

PS - I just read your last post from Outlaw support -- he says the channel trim is global meaning (to me) each channel has a trim no matter what mode you are in. Not the same as a "global trim".

Post by DrOctodivx September 16, 2004 (16 of 22)
david elias said:


- the LFE .1 output can be bypassed with a toggle switch on the back. i am using this setting. i believe there are 3 optional cutoff crossover frequencies to choose if you want to use a subwoofer (which i don't have). since i have this toggle setting "off", the option for trim control on subwoofer was "none" (similar to "left back" and "right back" for a 7.1 system). there is no separate "bass out" for the bypass mode. i'm not 100% sure if they mix anything from the .1 channel but doubt it. as far as i know, i'm just hearing the 5 channels through my 5 speakers. i can try to check this out a little more later. they also have the full user manual online if you want to check there at http://www.outlawaudio.com

Hi David,

Actually, the info about the subwoofer comes from the manual, I was aware of the switch on the back - and I would prefer it in the off position as well, since I want all 6 channels to be passed through unmodified to my amplifier and subwoofers from the SACD source.

However, this passage in the manual (page 34) bothers me (especially the last paragraph which says that even when in the down position of this switch, all information below 80Hz is sent to the subwoofer channel - not desirable since I want my .1 channel to go directly from the SACD to the subwoofer unadultered - just as I want the other full-bandwidth channels to go to my 5 full range speakers):

"Multichannel Source Playback
Access to a 5.1 channel source connected to the Multichannel Inputs is accomplished
by using the 6 Channel Direct mode. Examples of a 5.1 channel source
would be a DVD-A or SACD multi-channel player.
Analog Bass Management
The Model 950 provides Analog Bass Management when 6 Channel Direct is
selected. This function, which only applies to a source connected to the Multichannel
inputs, is controlled via a small toggle switch on the rear panel of the
Model 950 (see item 18 on page 9).
When the switch is in the Up position, the Analog Bass Management function
is On, and the unit will provide an 80Hz crossover for the Left, Center, Right,
Left Surround and Right Surround loudspeakers. Bass below 80Hz from all
these channels will be sent into the subwoofer (.1) channel.
If the switch is set in the Down position, no crossover filtering occurs, providing
the full bandwidth signal, including all bass information, to the speakers.
However, all information below 80Hz is still summed and sent to the subwoofer
output."

As far as the trim control goes for the 5 channels, I trust that you are correct since it would make more sense to have individual trim controls, even in the bypass mode. I am most likely misunderstanding the email from outlaw support, though I still find it ambiguous, especially the last statement telling me that I should be able to control it from my SACD play (which unfortunately I can't) - there would be no need to do so if I can do it in the outlaw....

-karl

Post by david elias September 16, 2004 (17 of 22)
DrOctodivx said:
"However, all information below 80Hz is still summed and sent to the subwoofer
output."

As far as the trim control goes for the 5 channels, I trust that you are correct since it would make more sense to have individual trim controls, even in the bypass mode. I am most likely misunderstanding the email from outlaw support, though I still find it ambiguous, especially the last statement telling me that I should be able to control it from my SACD play (which unfortunately I can't) - there would be no need to do so if I can do it in the outlaw....

-karl

Hi Karl - you have a good point on the bass management. If, in the "off" mode, they still sum everything below 80Hz and send it to the subwoofer in ADDITION to anything mixed to the LFE channel on a surround SACD disc, it would seem you might get those frequencies twice through the sub, and then even a 3rd time through the 5 other speakers. Perhaps their support can answer this but it sounds like something is pretty wrong there (hopefully just in the document)! I don't have a subwoofer so I can't verify any of this other than the "no crossover filtering" is working on my 5 channels. These are the kind of issues that continue to convince me that mixing for audio surround using the LFE channel at all is not a good idea. We have twice now opted to make sure no signal is routed to the LFE on our surround mixes for SACD and this is largely why!

As far as trim control - all I can say is it works as I've tested it. I think the support rep's comments were just saying there could be even more control through the SACD player itself in some cases. But he refers to a "properly calibrated system" meaning, I believe, the trim controls in the 950.

Good luck! - David

Post by DrOctodivx September 16, 2004 (18 of 22)
minimalist999 said:

I have the same problem with my Sony TA-E9000ES. I am building an analog preamp for 5.1 signals. The preamp has a straight-through mode with no active components in the signal path, only relays. If volume control is needed for other 5.1 sources, the signal goes through a high quality purely analog master-volume/balance circuit. One of three sets of 5.1 inputs can be selected by front push buttons.

The cost of building extra copies will not be more than $350.

Hi Minimalist,

Actually the TA-P9000ES was designed as an add on for the TA-E9000ES due to the limitations in that unit for SACD playback as detailed here :

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200209.htm

And the design does seem similar to what you are are building custom - ie. all analog high quality components, do you provide controls for individual trim in your unit ? Also, do you have a remote control for the master volume (when I am realxing and listening to music, I do like to be able to control the volume without leaving my listening position).

I would be curious to check out the aesthetics of the unit you are building. Could you contact me at kjcremin@gmail.com to discuss the possibility of buying an extra copy of this unit from you ?

Thanks !
-karl

Post by minimalist999 September 16, 2004 (19 of 22)
DrOctodivx said:

Hi Minimalist,

Actually the TA-P9000ES was designed as an add on for the TA-E9000ES due to the limitations in that unit for SACD playback as detailed here :

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/surrounded200209.htm

And the design does seem similar to what you are are building custom - ie. all analog high quality components, do you provide controls for individual trim in your unit ? Also, do you have a remote control for the master volume (when I am realxing and listening to music, I do like to be able to control the volume without leaving my listening position).

I would be curious to check out the aesthetics of the unit you are building. Could you contact me at kjcremin@gmail.com to discuss the possibility of buying an extra copy of this unit from you ?

Thanks !
-karl

Hi DrOctodivx,

The trims are:

- Front balance L/R (+/-6dB)
- Rear balance L/R (+/-6dB)
- Front/Rear balance (+/-6dB)
- Center level (0..-20dB)
- Subwoofer level (0..-20dB)

and of course a Master level control: (0..-90dB).
(all front panel knobs)

Nice enclosure (W11.4";D7.87";H2.92")

There is NO remote - I wanted to keep the cost down.

I'll get in touch with you in a separate e-mail soon.

Steve

Post by DrOctodivx September 17, 2004 (20 of 22)
minimalist999 said:

I'll get in touch with you in a separate e-mail soon.

Thanks Steve,

I will be looking forward to your email. I will be gone to Tucson from Saturday through Tuesday evening so I will get back to you on anything you send me when I get back.

-Karl

Page: prev 1 2 3 next

Closed