Thread: SACD / DSD via HDMI-- what's the skinny?

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Post by FunkyMonkey February 6, 2008 (61 of 103)
trntbl said:

Room-EQ is not my cup of tea, you simply can´t polish turd.

No, but you can polish silver that has been tarnished [i.e. sound that is intrinsically good because of careful device selection but that has been coloured by poor less-than-perfect acoustics - after all, we cannot all have dedicated listening rooms].

Audyssey does this with aplomb (when set up correctly).

Post by dobyblue February 8, 2008 (62 of 103)
raffells said:

Wrong This would only be true if all other parts where the same..Think about it.They arent.
Im curious why he is ignoring the DSD chip altogether which is more important for sacd.
Reading advertisments and sales literature from manufacturers is as innacurate a way and so is reading technical specifications for the equipment .Anyone who knows what they are doing can make any specs seem good or bad.
The capabilities of a single component aren what the machine is capable of and is not the weakest link.
Specs have very little to do with the sonics AND Certainly very little to do with how it works in a more complex electronic equation ie A Full system.
Manufacturers often design equipment ie add colouration to overcome problems.These are often more liked than higher specified gear.

1) I'm from Sussex you spanner, so I know who Twiggy is and it's perfectly irrelevant to the conversation.
2) The PCM1796 and PCM1792 chips are DSD chips, so who is "ignoring the DSD chip altogether"?
3) We were on the topic of DAC's at numerous points throughout this thread and hence the particular part of the conversation I was responding to is completely relevant.
4) Did you look at the manufacturer's being mentioned? We're not talking about "Nuance" speakers here, we're talking about companies that we already know have good products from looking inside them and looking at benchmark testing. The power supply in the TX-NR905 is a monster.
5) We're also talking about an all-in-one receiver that will do the job of being a home theater receiver for the winning Blu-ray Disc format that will also satisfy the demands of the low-end audiophile. For some people $2G is pennies to spend on a receiver, for others, myself included, it's got to be a minimum 5-year investment...if not longer.

Post by soundboy February 26, 2008 (63 of 103)
Yamaha just announced some new HT receivers. Being the cheapskate that I am, I checked out one of its lower-priced models (about US$300.00) and I noticed it's HDMI 1.2a compatible. I wonder if it will decode a DSD bitstream like one from Oppo's 980? Anyway, I e-mailed Yamaha and we'll see what they tell us. BTW, I checked the owner's manual of the receiver in question and it didn't mention that it won't decode DSD.

Just received Yamaha's response....

The HTR-6140 supports Multi-channel PCM via HDMI with the following specifications 6ch, 32-192 kHz, 16/20/24 bit. It does not support raw DSD via HDMI. For that feature, you will need to get the HTR-6160 or higher.

Post by Bobpaule February 27, 2008 (64 of 103)
FunkyMonkey said:

I DO get it, mate. but the spec on the Pioneer 600 in the UK, says 5.1 DSD HDMI output. Pretty darn conclusive.

Sorry FunkyMonkey, my tone was a bit rude to say the least. Apologies please.

Post by msandyck March 4, 2008 (65 of 103)
A very fascinating thread, but it seems to go a bit awry of reality.
Check out real equipment tests like in Hifi News http://www.hifinews.com/
Now those are real world measurements to compare equipment, next to a reviewers opinion. In my book my own two ears still rule my spending.

Technical note: it's got to be HDMI v1.3a at least (latest version) to be able to transport DSD over HDMI. So anything below that HDMI spec automatically does a DSD to PCM translation before it goes through the pipe. Additonally, anything that does digital sound processing (DSP), will only process it in PCM, as there is simply not enough calculation power at a realistic pricepoint to do it in DSD.

As to equipment choices, I've gone for Marantz. DV7001 "any-disk-but-HD" player and SR8002 7.1 receiver. For SACD listening they're hooked up with 6 high grade RCA cables, as analog is my only option (because the DV7001 is still HDMI v1.2), and this was a concious choice. I play MC on the home theater setup with B&W 7xM1 + PV1 sub, in analog "Pure Direct" mode, and sounds sublime. To take it up a notch, I've kept my old Tannoy's, but can switch in the PV1 sub, to have an enhanced stereo experience. And man, it rocks! Listening to the remastered Depeche Mode albums: this is what multi channel hifi is about. Discovering layers of soundcomplexity unheard before, either on LP or CD. And my music taste goes from that to classical. The only thing I still need to try out is the Audissey roomEQ, as I've got a fairly symmetrical room, I still have to see the impact.
To get back to the technical discussion, the DV7001 uses CS4398 DACs, followed by excellent filters and amplification stage. To the pairing of equipment a lot of listening to systems has gone before, as well as reading of various sources, which is all part of the fun.

As said, if it sounds good enough for you, agrees with the depth of your wallet, and the misses agrees, what could make life better?

Post by Windsurfer March 4, 2008 (66 of 103)
msandyck said:

A very fascinating thread, but it seems to go a bit awry of reality.
Check out real equipment tests like in Hifi News http://www.hifinews.com/
Now those are real world measurements to compare equipment, next to a reviewers opinion. In my book my own two ears still rule my spending.

From 1978 through sometime in early 2000 or 2001, I used to be a HUGE fan of Hi Fi News (and Record Review) then it dropped "and Record Review" from the name and became just Hi Fi News. That would seem like a small change but I noticed a couple things:

A very huge prejudice against SACD and DSD and a real lack of musical worth. I did not renew my subscription back in 2002 I think it was - and when I occasionally leaf through a copy at the local bookstore, I am usually disgusted with the garbage I see written there.

If these guys were to listen to some PentaTone, Channel Classics or BIS sacds on good surround equipment with out knowing it, I bet they would change their tune. But maybe they are incapable of being honest even with themselves.

This magazine went from something of considerable substance to all gloss and glitter. I subscribed to Hi Fi News and Record review for over 30 years but now I have absolutely NO respect for them at all!

Post by FunkyMonkey March 4, 2008 (67 of 103)
msandyck said:
Technical note: it's got to be HDMI v1.3a at least (latest version) to be able to transport DSD over HDMI. So anything below that HDMI spec automatically does a DSD to PCM translation before it goes through the pipe.

Wikipedia:
HDMI 1.2
Released August 2005.
Added support for One Bit Audio, used on Super Audio CDs, up to 8 channels.

Which one of you is wrong?

Post by Polly Nomial March 4, 2008 (68 of 103)
FunkyMonkey said:

Which one of you is wrong?

According to http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/kb.aspx#12, v1.2 will support DSD over HDMI but whether many receivers or players are out with this feature I am not sure.

Post by The Seventh Taylor March 4, 2008 (69 of 103)
Correct. Many receiver manufacturers may have jumped straigt from v1.1 to 1.3. Probably a matter of availability of chipsets.

Post by msandyck March 5, 2008 (70 of 103)
I'll need to dig to find where I got the DSD over HDMI only as of v1.3a, but I'm pretty certain that on any versions below, you'll get linear PCM (LPCM over the HDMI link), ie the one bit mentioned in Wikipedia.

On Hifi News, I only "found" them last summer, so I have no reference as to what came before. Comparing with what else I find in the bookstore, though, that's still the only magazine that offers scientific measurements backing up the reviews, and you can't fault that. Correct me if I'm wrong, as here in little Belgium, there's no local hifi press.

I've bought good SACD's from BIS, Telarc and Channel Classics by now, and even on my "mini" (B&W M1) multichannel speakers it sounds incredible. This is what multichannel has been aspiring to since all the four- and eight track efforts, and finally got there. It was actually the PV1 "500W egg" that sold me on the B&W solution, by the way. I still prefer the sound of the 2.1 setup for hifi listening with my old faithful Tannoy's plus the PV1 rightly tuned, so my next project might very well be to relegate the Tannoys to the backchannels and add new fronts and center speakers for a 5.1 hifi setup ...

What clinched it for me on SACD is the fact that many new SACD's are being released month by month (sorry if you like only one category of music), and that there is a lively community online. Backdraw is there aren't many stores around where you can actually go and listen to them before buying, which I prefer. But stuff like Caroline Henderson and Spyro Gyra are gems off the beaten track.

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