Thread: SACD surround sound with stereo tube amplifier

Posts: 24
Page: prev 1 2 3 next

Post by mikamote December 25, 2014 (11 of 24)
Hallo
and thanks for your comments. I think that 4.0 works fine with
2 stereo amplifiers. I can adjust the rear speaker volume
via the rear amplifier volume. But for 5.0 I would indeed need a central volume
control. The NAD player allows speaker distance adjustment.
So a OPPO player with central volume control would make it possible
for me to use tube amplifier and 5.0. But it would cost an extra tube amplifier
just for the center.
Thanks for your help.
Best regards,
mika

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 December 25, 2014 (12 of 24)
mikamote said:

Hallo
and thanks for your comments. I think that 4.0 works fine with
2 stereo amplifiers. I can adjust the rear speaker volume
via the rear amplifier volume. But for 5.0 I would indeed need a central volume
control. The NAD player allows speaker distance adjustment.
So a OPPO player with central volume control would make it possible
for me to use tube amplifier and 5.0. But it would cost an extra tube amplifier
just for the center.
Thanks for your help.
Best regards,
mika

Yes, well, the same problem exists whether it is 4.0, 5.0 .... 7.1, etc. It is virtually impossible to get two separate volume controls to track identically so that you are retaining the same front - rear balance as you adjust overall volume up or down. Two controls are obviously not as bad as three, four or more. But, you be be distorting the sound field from ideal as mixed on the disc and you will lack repeatability after you change volume just once. It will be difficult to get them back into exact synchronization without a single master volume. And, because of differing recorded levels by genre - orchestral vs. chamber, for example - by label or even by work, changing overal volume frequently is an absolute necessity.

You might be enthusiastic about the Mch effects you achieve, but maximum realism, as recorded, will not be one of them.

Post by AmonRa December 25, 2014 (13 of 24)
As I wrote about using separate amplifiers for front and back (or whichever configuration) I was of course thinking about power amps. Using individual preamplifiers with volume control is totally impractical, unless set at fixed volume level. Fine for experimenting and falling in love with MCH, but not for continuous use.

One practical solution is to use player output volume control if available. Worrying about diminished audio quality when using digital volume control is unnecessary. Set the level so that when output is at maximum preamplifier controls are at maximum comfortable sound pressure level (highest you are likely to use). When turning down the digital volume control on the player the sound quality will stay the same, there is enough resolution in high-res material for that.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 December 26, 2014 (14 of 24)
AmonRa said:

As I wrote about using separate amplifiers for front and back (or whichever configuration) I was of course thinking about power amps. Using individual preamplifiers with volume control is totally impractical, unless set at fixed volume level. Fine for experimenting and falling in love with MCH, but not for continuous use.

One practical solution is to use player output volume control if available. Worrying about diminished audio quality when using digital volume control is unnecessary. Set the level so that when output is at maximum preamplifier controls are at maximum comfortable sound pressure level (highest you are likely to use). When turning down the digital volume control on the player the sound quality will stay the same, there is enough resolution in high-res material for that.

Right. Unfortunately, his NAD player has no master volume control that I can see in a quick check of the owner's manual.

Post by mikamote December 26, 2014 (15 of 24)
hallo,
i can adjust the relative speaker output volume
in the NAD M5 menu. For example front speaker +-0 and rear speaker - 6 db.
This way I could adjust the 2 stereo amplifiers in a way that
10 oclock volume at the front speaker amplifier will be also 10 oclock for the rear speaker
amplifier. Best result of course if the calibration is set up with help of a microphone and
a software. How about that?
best regards,
mika

Post by windhoek December 27, 2014 (16 of 24)
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm in the process of moving to a PC based 4.0 setup for m/c music. Until funds could allow the purchase of an Exasound E28 m/c DAC and volume control, I planned on using my OPPO 103D as source, digital processor and preamp with audio routed to stereo integrated amp (with AV Bypass) for front speakers and stereo poweramp for rear speakers.

Well, the stereo poweramp arrived a few days ago and with rabid excitement, I played Gaucho on SACD and frankly, it was a dreadful experience because there was very little cohesion between front and rear speakers, if any at all. It became clear very quickly that without some sort of DSP, my hopes for good sounding 4.0 m/c music would be dashed for the foreseeable future.

Even though I want to move to PC based setup for m/c music in the long term, I knew there was no way I could live with m/c the way it is and so yesterday I bought a (fairly cheap at £250) Marantz NR1504 AVR, which importantly, has Preouts for the front channels and adequate DSP trickery. I just ran the Audyessy setup wizard and played Gaucho and wow, what a difference. Suddenly I'm experiencing the sort of m/c magnificence I hoped for all along. In fact, it's so good, I might just stick with disc playback for m/c audio and leave my HTPC to play digital stereo and my TT vinyl. For such a smallish amount of cash (the quality of the other components in my system notwithstanding), my dream 4.0 has suddenly materialised :)

To the OP, although you may feel you've got a great sounding m/c setup, I reckon you could make it sound so much better with so little change and cost, as I have.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 December 27, 2014 (17 of 24)
mikamote said:

hallo,
i can adjust the relative speaker output volume
in the NAD M5 menu. For example front speaker +-0 and rear speaker - 6 db.
This way I could adjust the 2 stereo amplifiers in a way that
10 oclock volume at the front speaker amplifier will be also 10 oclock for the rear speaker
amplifier. Best result of course if the calibration is set up with help of a microphone and
a software. How about that?
best regards,
mika

Ideally, you would calibrate all channels with a mic or sound level meter. You want identical broad frequency tones to have equal volume on all channels, typically at around 75 dB. Your idea might enable you to maintain that balance approximately with music recordings, which have much lower output in the surround channels as mixed in the recording. But, it will be inexact and non-repeatable as you adjust for volume differences by recording.

It might be better than nothing, but it might with care be all you can do for now. The master volume control idea is, of course, more accurate, more repeatable and much more convenient.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 December 27, 2014 (18 of 24)
windhoek said:

...

I thought the Oppo 103 had DSP to enable inter channel balance and distance correction as well as a master volume control. DSP and the digital master volume are incompatible with DSD playback, though. That is true everywhere, not just Oppo. But, glad that the Marantz solved your problem, and it has Audyssey room correction, which the Oppo does not.

Post by mikamote December 28, 2014 (19 of 24)
What can I say? Life is full of compromises. Speaker placement, WAF, money...
I guess I will continue to be happy with my 4.0 tube arrangement.
5.0 would mean a transistor preamp and 5 tube mono blocks. My wife would put me into
the mental house. And then again. How can anybody be happy with 5.1 or 7.2, if around the
corner 14.4 is already waiting!?
I guess I wait a little and save money for my own concert hall with a nice little chamber orchestra
that plays Bach till lunch and Telemann till supper ;)
Until then I wish everybody a happy new year and that you will be able to listen to the music
and forget about the hardware.
best regards, mika

Post by windhoek December 28, 2014 (20 of 24)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

I thought the Oppo 103 had DSP to enable inter channel balance and distance correction as well as a master volume control. DSP and the digital master volume are incompatible with DSD playback, though. That is true everywhere, not just Oppo. But, glad that the Marantz solved your problem, and it has Audyssey room correction, which the Oppo does not.

You're right, the OPPO has some DSP tricks; speaker distance, speaker level and bass management, but the thing it doesn't do is EQ and that, in addition to more precise speaker settings, is what I think the Marantz does so much better via Audyssey and why 4.0 via the OPPO was dreadful whereas 4.0 via the Marantz is simply superb.

If I can route m/c music from my HTPC to the Marantz via HDMI, then things might be even better, but as it is, m/c disc playback is working a treat :)

And a side effect is, movies sound better too lol.

Page: prev 1 2 3 next

Closed