Thread: DSD converted to PCM by budget SACD players

Posts: 7

Post by vandedave@yahoo.com February 18, 2004 (1 of 7)
I recently found this review of the Pioneer DV-563A SACD/DVD player at http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/pioneer_dv563a.htm

". . . while the Sony processes the native DSD signal, the Pioneer converts DSD to PCM before processing. Pioneer does this to save the cost of making a player that includes two processors. While this may have a slight negative impact on performance, it’s one of the things that has allowed Pioneer to drive down the DV-563A’s cost to something the mass market can afford."

As a non-technical person, it seems to me the conversion of DSD encoded information into PCM defeats the purpose of SACD. I'm a little miffed at discovering this after purchasing the Pioneer player. I have no complaints about the performance of the Pioneer, but had I known it was not a "true" SACD player I probably would have chosen a different model. I can't help but think I've been duped.

Let me reiterate that Super Audio on the Pioneer sounds amazing to my ears. It's significantly more realistic than CD sound, and I'm thrilled that I could upgrade my stereo system this much for under $150 (from Circuit City).

I wonder, how close is the Pioneer model to reproducing honest-to-goodness Direct Stream Digital audio? Did I miss the SACD boat by buying this thing?

Post by zeus February 18, 2004 (2 of 7)
vandedave@yahoo.com said:

Let me reiterate that Super Audio on the Pioneer sounds amazing to my ears. It's significantly more realistic than CD sound, and I'm thrilled that I could upgrade my stereo system this much for under $150 (from Circuit City).

I wonder, how close is the Pioneer model to reproducing honest-to-goodness Direct Stream Digital audio? Did I miss the SACD boat by buying this thing?

Well, from your comments, apparently not. There's been a lot of discussion on DSD to PCM conversion in some players, sometimes just for bass management, and often the reported facts are wrong. Needless to say, if they are converting DSD to PCM, it won't be at 16bit/44.1kHz so you're still ahead. At any given price point there will be compromises in the design, build, components etc.

I wouldn't get too hung up on the specs. If it sounds good to you, this is all that matters. And if/when it comes time to move to a better (and likely more expensive) player, you'll know what to listen for.

Post by sound_labs February 18, 2004 (3 of 7)
I wonder, how close is the Pioneer model to reproducing honest-to-goodness Direct Stream Digital audio? Did I miss the SACD boat by buying this thing?
You pose an interesting question. This subject has popped up before. To be honest, this practice has been going on for some time, but folks like Pioneer are always too DAMN vauge when they even mention that they do this. For $150 bucks, I would have done more research and hit EBAY for a higher-end used unit, but ok, what's done is done.


First, have you determined to what level the DSD is changed to PCM? I'm sure that the deck is going higher than 44.1k /16 bit sampling rate and word length of CD. If this pioneer is going to say 96k/24 bit or even 192K/24 bit per channel, what you've got is essentially DSD watered down to DVD-audio.

Actually I wouldn't be that upset over that given the price point. Now had I purchased a Piooner Elite, Sony ES, etc, yeah I'd be mad. But if that really still bugs you, I'd take that back, and hit the used market for a Sony C222ES, or Philips 963SA, Both fine machines for the money. Both can be had (usually) for under $300 and have much better parts inside than your standard Pioneer. I've seen Pioneer's Elite line of SACD/DVD players running for about that much as well without the iLink output, but I'd look into how those units handle the change from DSD to analog.


You did state you were very happy with the sound. Hey for $150 maybe you should just stick with it?


- Tony




http://www.epinions.com/user-sslabs

Post by Dan Popp February 18, 2004 (4 of 7)
zeus said:

Needless to say, if they are converting DSD to PCM, it won't be at 16bit/44.1kHz so you're still ahead.

Stephen,
I don't understand why you're so confident of that - can you explain? It seems to me that if they're going to cheap-out, and they've already got a 16/44.1 converter in there, the easiest and cheapest thing to do would be exactly that.

Companies that pull this kind of crap should get fined by the Federal Trade Commission. It's certainly misleading and it helps no one in the long run.

Post by izamber February 25, 2004 (5 of 7)
vandedave@yahoo.com said:

I recently found this review of the Pioneer DV-563A SACD/DVD player at http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/pioneer_dv563a.htm

Seems that the DACs used in the 563A are compatible with DSD also, so I would guess that PCM conversion is used if and only if you engage the bass management.

Igor

Post by soundboy February 25, 2004 (6 of 7)
izamber said:

Seems that the DACs used in the 563A are compatible with DSD also, so I would guess that PCM conversion is used if and only if you engage the bass management.

Igor

For what it's worth....

Over at hometheaterforum.com, there's a 19 page thread that dated back to summer of 2003 on the Pioneer 563A.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150437&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1

Throughout the thread, there was discussions of the issue with DSD>>PCM conversion. On page 11 of the thread, a reviewer posted....

Here's how Bass Management and DSD conversion work on the 563A.

If you set the Audio Output to 2 Channel in the 563's menu, it turns off Bass Management. If you set it to 5.1 Channel, it turns it on.

So, let's say you want to listen to the stereo track of a multi-channel SACD. You set the 563 (Initial Settings/Options) to go to the Stereo track, then if you want Bass Management, set the Audio Output to 5.1.

Here's how the DSD conversion works:

Bass Management OFF - DSD to Analog directly
Bass Management ON - DSD to LPCM to Analog

Since it goes to LPCM, you shouldn't hear a difference and, in fact, I can't when I play SACD's either way (except, of course, nothing comes out of my sub-woofer with BM Off).

It seems that the people who don't have a 563 are the ones concerned about DSD conversion and the ones that have one know that SACDs sound good. There are at least 3 high end SACD players ($5000 to $20000) that convert DSD to LPCM also, and they are well regarded.

I hope this information helps.

When asked how this reviewer know the conversion works, he posted....

I'm going to give you the complete story and hope it's not too long.
Because of a pre-production press release, it's been somewhat widely accepted that the 563 converts DSD to PCM before it goes to analog. Someone then reported that they traced the DSD signal all the way to analog. Both couldn't be right (or so it seemed).

I wrote a review on another forum (not here, at another spot) and in it I mentioned that the Pioneer web site said that the 563 has the Video-Off feature, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the 563's manual or menus and I'd give them an update. The first reply I got from Pioneer was in the form of another question, so I emailed them again and asked if I could get a response from someone who would actually take the time to read my question. It worked. BTW, the answer is: "Due to last-minute design refinement, the DV-563A does not have the VIDEO OFF feature described on our website. We apologize for any confusion that may have occurred."
Now that I was in contact with someone who would actually take the time to give an informed reply, I asked about the DSD conversion. You know what the answer was. As you can also see, the guy who traced the DSD signal, and the original assessment, are both correct. It depends on the BM mode.

I haven't read all the posts on this forum, but it appears that some people are having problems with 2 channel DVD-A and other things. My 563 plays all formats very nicely. I get no clicking noises or other anomolies. I suppose it's possible that there's a QC problem with the 563. If so, I hope they get it worked out soon, but in the meantime, if you have one that's working right, it's quite a bargain.

I could copy the review from the other forum and paste it here if you're interested.


Gary

Tweaks & Reviews
www.slottweak.com

And here's a link to Sound and Vision magazine's review of the Pioneer 563A. Completely with lab measurements.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=1&article_id=509&page_number=1

Post by bru March 14, 2004 (7 of 7)
vandedave@yahoo.com said:

I recently found this review of the Pioneer DV-563A SACD/DVD player at http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/pioneer_dv563a.htm

". . . while the Sony processes the native DSD signal, the Pioneer converts DSD to PCM before processing. Pioneer does this to save the cost of making a player that includes two processors. While this may have a slight negative impact on performance, it's one of the things that has allowed Pioneer to drive down the DV-563A's cost to something the mass market can afford."

As a non-technical person, it seems to me the conversion of DSD encoded information into PCM defeats the purpose of SACD. I'm a little miffed at discovering this after purchasing the Pioneer player. I have no complaints about the performance of the Pioneer, but had I known it was not a "true" SACD player I probably would have chosen a different model. I can't help but think I've been duped.

Let me reiterate that Super Audio on the Pioneer sounds amazing to my ears. It's significantly more realistic than CD sound, and I'm thrilled that I could upgrade my stereo system this much for under $150 (from Circuit City).

I wonder, how close is the Pioneer model to reproducing honest-to-goodness Direct Stream Digital audio? Did I miss the SACD boat by buying this thing?

I cant complain considering I paid $70 for mine open boxed and does not looked used. batterys were not even opened. but good info I did not know.

Closed