Thread: Question about sacd players

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Post by FullRangeMan July 6, 2013 (21 of 72)
Confuzzled said:

I quite like the idea of a minimalist setup, but I wouldn't really be hearing an sacd to it's full extent would I with 2 speakers? Just thinking about sacds like Pink Floyd with 5.1 surround sound mix. I never thought about a headphone setup. I have the sennheiser hd25 ii headphones, and some Heir 4.ai iems. I suppose with the right headphone amp I could listen through those? But I don't think the headphones are really that good. But the iems have impressed me.

Quote: but I wouldn't really be hearing an sacd to it's full extent would I with 2 speakers?

I cant answer it as I never listen a 5.0 system suited to music, only broncos 5.1 a/v receivers/speakers made to home theaters.

But Iam sure the HD800 phones can surpass a Stereo and a multi-channel system in image, stereo effects and small details.
But dont buy a HD800 without a listening test, forget about others headphones the soundstage is small and dont will substitute a standalone speakers.

Post by Kal Rubinson July 6, 2013 (22 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:
But Iam sure the HD800 phones can surpass a Stereo and a multi-channel system in image, stereo effects and small details.

Image? Nope, not unless you are listing to a binaural recording.
Stereo effects? Mebbe but not without some exaggeration.
Small details? Probably but that includes noise.

Post by hiredfox July 6, 2013 (23 of 72)
Nagraboy said:

And I'm now using analogue outputs for my new 5.1 setup! Mind you, my amp is an ancient Sony QS receiver...

Hey! welcome back.. there have been a few enquiries

Post by Nagraboy July 6, 2013 (24 of 72)
hiredfox said:

Hey! welcome back.. there have been a few enquiries

Thanks very much John! It's good to be back.

I've had a big change round in various hobbies since parting company with my 2ch dCS/Nagra system - I've indulged my horological passion with most of the proceeds! Don't know what Rammie will make of that? At least it's not Fabergé eggs like DB!!

After selling the expensive 2ch gear, I'm finally free to experiment with 5.1 SACDs. I'm just using some rock-bottom budget gear right now, but results are pretty impressive in some ways.

A Cambridge Audio 650BD connected with analogue RCAs to an ancient pre-HDMI Sony AV receiver feeding a well-matched combination of 4 Wharfedale 10.0 bookshelf speakers, a 10CC centre speaker and a Wharfdale SW150 active sub. Apart from the player which I already had, the whole lot cost less than £250 including cables. All speakers are equidistant from the listening seat and the sub takes care of everything below 80Hz.

Currently playing Bach Cello Suites by Richard Tunicliffe on Linn Records. It's amazing what 5.1 can do for a solo instrument!

Thanks for the good wishes and see you around :)

Post by FullRangeMan July 6, 2013 (25 of 72)
Kal Rubinson said:

Image? Nope, not unless you are listing to a binaural recording.
Stereo effects? Mebbe but not without some exaggeration.
Small details? Probably but that includes noise.

Well, a 5.1 speaker set had over 10 crossover cuts, this is not musical fidelity in any way, just sound, unless the speakers are fullrange drivers-no xovers.

A good headphone can easily play noise from poor resordings, if this is a prob I would suggest the good HiFI-MAN HE400 a planar very musical phones costing just $400, $1100 less than the HD800, a bargain.
http://www.amazon.com/HiFiMAN-HE-400-Planar-Efficiency-Headphones/dp/B007ZG32I4/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1373158799&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=hifiman+he400
And it not need a hi voltage electrostatic amp, a PC or CD player output will drive it.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 July 7, 2013 (26 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

Well, a 5.1 speaker set had over 10 crossover cuts, this is not musical fidelity in any way, just sound, unless the speakers are fullrange drivers-no xovers.

A good headphone can easily play noise from poor resordings, if this is a prob I would suggest the good HiFI-MAN HE400 a planar very musical phones costing just $400, $1100 less than the HD800, a bargain.
http://www.amazon.com/HiFiMAN-HE-400-Planar-Efficiency-Headphones/dp/B007ZG32I4/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1373158799&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=hifiman+he400
And it not need a hi voltage electrostatic amp, a PC or CD player output will drive it.

Everything has its trade offs, and nothing is perfect, particularly not if you focus on just one design or performance parameter, e.g., speaker crossovers. My first stereo back in the late 50's used a pair of the old original Koss headphones, which I listened to for hours on end until I could afford a decent set of stereo speakers. And, I am glad to see headphones making something of a comeback among a niche of audiophiles. But, you could not pay me enough to go back to that sound. They may be more accurate and more detailed in some ways, but the imaging is simply wrong vs. the mastered final mix on the disk and bass performance a huge compromise, both issues compared to properly set up speakers in a well behaved room, most notably a quality Mch setup.

Nothing against rock or other music genres, but particularly with the artificial, studio mixes that predominate there, imaging may not make a huge difference. The bass will, as it is always going to be deficient through headphones. The image on the recording is often not real in the first place, so distorting it through the phones may not be a big deal. Still, you can listen to music and enjoy getting your toe a tapping that way, perhaps hearing things you would never hear through speakers in the process. But, that does not make them more "real" or more accurate or more faithful to the original recording.

On the other hand, if you go to a live classical concert and come home to your 'phones and their inside the head imaging, it is a real downer. Yes, there is music there, but no successful recreation of the reality of the live sonic experience. It is mentally fatiguing to listen that way, unless, perhaps, you just do not know what live music is supposed to sound like. Not having much live listening experience in my youth enabled me to stick with my old Koss setup for a long time. I am older, but wiser now.

If I had an extra $4k lying around, I might invest in a Smyth Realizer headphone setup for my bedroom and listen in Mch. They appear to overcome the imaging issues all other phones have. I would just have to mentally compensate for the compromise of accurate bass all headphones have.

Post by FullRangeMan July 7, 2013 (27 of 72)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:
Everything has its trade offs, and nothing is perfect, particularly not if you focus on just one design or performance parameter, e.g., speaker crossovers. My first stereo back in the late 50's used a pair of the old original Koss headphones, which I listened to for hours on end until I could afford a decent set of stereo speakers. And, I am glad to see headphones making something of a comeback among a niche of audiophiles. But, you could not pay me enough to go back to that sound. They may be more accurate and more detailed in some ways, but the imaging is simply wrong vs. the mastered final mix on the disk and bass performance a huge compromise, both issues compared to properly set up speakers in a well behaved room, most notably a quality Mch setup.

QUOTE: but the imaging is simply wrong vs. the mastered final mix on the disk and bass performance a huge compromise, both issues compared to properly set up speakers in a well behaved room, most notably a quality Mch setup.

The bass will, as it is always going to be deficient through headphones. The image on the recording is often not real in the first place, so distorting it through the phones may not be a big deal.
= = =
Seems you are talking about soundstage, Iam refering to image of the instrumnents.
Small soundstage is the reason headphones are yet less used by audiophiles than floorstanding speakers.

Headphones are as speakers, some has big bass others smaller bass, the HD800 has a transparent, neutral bass and the HE400 a big bass, more musical.
Both these phones offer best sound with tube amps, the HD800 is very finicky about amps though.

As is well known here I like fullrange drivers due the best pin point image avaliable, two or more ways speakers are a serious compromisse in quality, not to mention the extra money.
The best feature of a FR driver is the custumer or a carpenter can built his own cabinet for the driver, getting free of the serial labor of the poorly paid employees of these manufacturers.

Unfortunately I have not listen the HD800 yet, so Iam unable to say it can replace a regular speaker.

OBS.: Iam was unable to quote your full text, strange feature.

Post by Kal Rubinson July 7, 2013 (28 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

Well, a 5.1 speaker set had over 10 crossover cuts, this is not musical fidelity in any way, just sound, unless the speakers are fullrange drivers-no xovers.

A bias that I do not share.

Post by FullRangeMan July 7, 2013 (29 of 72)
Kal Rubinson said:

A bias that I do not share.

Xovers consuming energy to operate, part of this energy is lost in heat, unfortunately it is the small musical detail DC energy.
So a xover must be simpler and few parts. The 1990s Thiel CS5 monster used a complex 3.5 way xover with 104 parts, more the PCB + solders according late Audio mag.

If the custumer demand hi SPL a regular multi-way speaker is the way to go, as FR drivers for hi-fi has small power handlig.

Post by Kal Rubinson July 7, 2013 (30 of 72)
FullRangeMan said:

Xovers consuming energy to operate, part of this energy is lost in heat, unfortunately it is the small musical detail DC energy.
So a xover must be simpler and few parts. The 1990s Thiel CS5 monster used a complex 3.5 way xover with 104 parts, more the PCB + solders according late Audio mag.

If the custumer demand hi SPL a regular multi-way speaker is the way to go, as FR drivers for hi-fi has small power handlig.

Those arguments are proof of nothing but are attempts to justify a preference. My preference is different from yours and is based on my listening experience.

.........but what the hell is "small music detail DC energy?"

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