Thread: Accuphase electronics + B&W speakers for SACD playback

Posts: 4

Post by jerzy November 18, 2005 (1 of 4)
Is anybody in this forum using Accuphase SACD player with Accuphase electronics to drive B&W speakers? I am looking for a specific advice in picking the right components and accessories, especially from someone who tried different options at the friendly Accuphase dealer.
My system consists of DP-85 SACD, E-307 integrated (however using only power amp section for CD/SACD playback, a minimalist approach yet with audible benefits) and B&W 802N speakers.
Plan to change E-307 to either A-60 (class A stereo power amp) or 2 x A-30 for bi-amping, and B&W 802N replace by B&W 802D or B&W 801D.

Post by mdt November 19, 2005 (2 of 4)
jerzy said:

Is anybody in this forum using Accuphase SACD player with Accuphase electronics to drive B&W speakers? I am looking for a specific advice in picking the right components and accessories, especially from someone who tried different options at the friendly Accuphase dealer.
My system consists of DP-85 SACD, E-307 integrated (however using only power amp section for CD/SACD playback, a minimalist approach yet with audible benefits) and B&W 802N speakers.
Plan to change E-307 to either A-60 (class A stereo power amp) or 2 x A-30 for bi-amping, and B&W 802N replace by B&W 802D or B&W 801D.

I have Accuphase Player and Amplification with B&W speakers (see my profile)
I would go for the 801D, in my oppinion the 801 has allways been the most well-balanced speaker in the 800 series, over the years i have updated from 801 to 801 Matrix to 801 N. I even prefer it to the top model 800.
I think the class A-amps dont have sufficient power for the bass speakers, alltough they excell in the mid/high range. I would go either for a powerful A/B amp (ideal but costly: M-8000 with 801)or an A/B amp for the bass plus a class A amp for the mid/high range.
Since the M-8000 has replaced the M-2000, it would also be an option to look out for a second hand M-2000. The combination of M-2000 and 801N has received an anual award in Japan at one time. If you find a good second hand M-2000, you'd have top notch sound at an interesting price.

Post by jerzy November 20, 2005 (3 of 4)
mdt said:

I have Accuphase Player and Amplification with B&W speakers (see my profile)
I would go for the 801D, in my oppinion the 801 has allways been the most well-balanced speaker in the 800 series, over the years i have updated from 801 to 801 Matrix to 801 N. I even prefer it to the top model 800.
I think the class A-amps dont have sufficient power for the bass speakers, alltough they excell in the mid/high range. I would go either for a powerful A/B amp (ideal but costly: M-8000 with 801)or an A/B amp for the bass plus a class A amp for the mid/high range.
Since the M-8000 has replaced the M-2000, it would also be an option to look out for a second hand M-2000. The combination of M-2000 and 801N has received an anual award in Japan at one time. If you find a good second hand M-2000, you'd have top notch sound at an interesting price.

Max, thank you for your suggestions. Congratulation for assembling such a system as yours - IMHO, it is virtually as good a stero system as one can dream of, specially, if one likes the Accuphase electronics and B&W speakers (as we both do). Your suggestions certainly put a new twist to my plans to upgrade my system. If you do not mind, I would appreciate the opportunity to pick up on your expertise and experience. If that's ok, I have a few more questions:

1. Using DP-85 (SACD player), with its build-in volume control, I by-pass preamp in the E-307 with audible sonic benefits. (Your DP-100 + DC-330 duo is a superior solution but I am not at that level, unfortunately). I like my minimalistic approach but do you think that replacing pre-amp component in E-307 with a high quality separate pre-amp. could benefit my future system sonically?
2. I know that bi-wiring is beneficial for driving B&W 800 series speakers, in general, but do you hear the benefits of bi-amping them, all other factors being approximately equal? My dilemma now is whether it would be to either change E-307 for a pair of M-2000 (a pair of used M-2000 would still be easily in the $10,000 range, as recently sold on Audiogon) or to serve high/mids by, say A-30 (their newest A-class amp. which should do for hi/mids on any upper model within 800 series) and get, maybe P-1000, for the bass?
3. How do you like PS-1200 in your system, and the Magic Line for that matter?
4. Did you compare 801 N with more recent 801D? My current budget would allow for either second hand B&W 801N or new B&W 802D. What would be your pick, if you have had a chance to listen their newest 800 line with the diamond tweeter and claimed further improvements ober Nautilus models to other components?
5. Finally, can you offer me hint where to obtain 'Applied Acoustic' components through the web?
I listen primarily to the acoustic music (jazz, classical, blues, flamenco, etc.) and for other types of music, I would typically use lesser systems around the house.
Thank you in advance,
Jerzy

Post by mdt November 20, 2005 (4 of 4)
jerzy said:

Max, thank you for your suggestions. Congratulation for assembling such a system as yours - IMHO, it is virtually as good a stero system as one can dream of, specially, if one likes the Accuphase electronics and B&W speakers (as we both do). Your suggestions certainly put a new twist to my plans to upgrade my system. If you do not mind, I would appreciate the opportunity to pick up on your expertise and experience. If that's ok, I have a few more questions:

1. Using DP-85 (SACD player), with its build-in volume control, I by-pass preamp in the E-307 with audible sonic benefits. (Your DP-100 + DC-330 duo is a superior solution but I am not at that level, unfortunately). I like my minimalistic approach but do you think that replacing pre-amp component in E-307 with a high quality separate pre-amp. could benefit my future system sonically?
2. I know that bi-wiring is beneficial for driving B&W 800 series speakers, in general, but do you hear the benefits of bi-amping them, all other factors being approximately equal? My dilemma now is whether it would be to either change E-307 for a pair of M-2000 (a pair of used M-2000 would still be easily in the $10,000 range, as recently sold on Audiogon) or to serve high/mids by, say A-30 (their newest A-class amp. which should do for hi/mids on any upper model within 800 series) and get, maybe P-1000, for the bass?
3. How do you like PS-1200 in your system, and the Magic Line for that matter?
4. Did you compare 801 N with more recent 801D? My current budget would allow for either second hand B&W 801N or new B&W 802D. What would be your pick, if you have had a chance to listen their newest 800 line with the diamond tweeter and claimed further improvements ober Nautilus models to other components?
5. Finally, can you offer me hint where to obtain 'Applied Acoustic' components through the web?
I listen primarily to the acoustic music (jazz, classical, blues, flamenco, etc.) and for other types of music, I would typically use lesser systems around the house.
Thank you in advance,
Jerzy

1. I do think so. Alltough it is correct that the less components in the signal path, the better, it is also so, that the volume control in the DP-85 (or any simple digital volume control)will be inferior to that in a high quality pre-amp. Im surprised that you have better results when by-passing the E-307, did you do careful listening at low levels also ? Listen carefully for changes in the soundstage when you attenuate.
I suggest you take your DP-85 to an Accuphase dealer and hook it up directly to the speaker/power-amp combi you have in mind, and alternatively over a possible seperate pre-amp. Listen especially to what hapens when you attenuate the sound.

2. certainly ! the ideal would be an activ speaker (i'm still dreaming of model Nautilus), one step down bi-amping, another step down bi-wiring.
M-2000 is surely ideal, but class A for mid/high is also excellent. This will be a matter of taste. When Bi-amping another point is to decide between vertical and horizontal bi-amping. I prefer vertical bi-amping, because amps can be very close to the speakers and short speaker cables are preferable to short line-level cables, also you can save on the cables since the speaker cable is normaly more expensive.For the version with class A up top and A/B for the bottom this would mean bridging stereo-amps, since they have no mono-class A amps and only very expensive mono A/B.
There are endless variations so it's difficult to give advice.
If you don't mind buying second hand and the 10k (continue to look for a better bargain first)are ok for you, an idea would be to get the M-2000, this would still allow you to add class A for the uper range sometime later, if you really want to push it to the limit.

3. i wouldn't want to go without the PS-1200. It has been one of the bigest steps in improving the system, reproduction is more stable and calm, imaging more precise. The magic line brings similar improvement but not to that degree.

4. I heard 803D and 800D, the claimed improvements over the 800N series are true and they are astonishing. Altough the 800D is clearly more precise than my 801N i still prefer the 801N for its overal balance. I think i'd buy an 801D blindly (unfortunately i had no chance to hear one)but i can't afford it either. On the choice between 2nd hand 801N and new 802D i can't advise you, this depends largely on your taste. Precision and micro dynamics will certainly be better on the 802D but it will not have the full bass of the 801. For me the 801 sounds warmer, fuller and especially more homogeneous than the other models, and it projects the energy of say a full scale symphony orchestra better.
Don't forget your listening room, it's a crucial factor in deciding for a speaker. The 801 is imo the most natural speaker, but it put's the bigest demands on the listening room because of it's huge woofer. I only got to hear what the 801 can realyy do, after having considerably treated the listening room. After all it's originaly a studio monitor, where controled room acoustics are standard.

5. applied acoustics isn't a component manufacturer but an acoustic-engineering office in switzerland (www.appliedacoustics.ch). If getting advice by an expert goes to far for you, i can suggest the tube traps by ASC (www.asc-hifi.com),they allow you to treat your room at moderate price and are simple to place on your own.
Basically you'll have to take care of bass build up, which you can do with the tube traps, and you'll have to treat the first reflection points of the signal on walls, floor and ceiling either by absorption or diffusion. To avoid buying expensive acoustic pannels you can achieve this with simple tricks, like placing a curtain (apsorption) or plants (difusion) at the first reflection points on the side walls. A carpet between you and the speakers will take care of floor reflections and a simple acoustic foam panel can be fixed to the ceiling.You'll find these topics very well explaned on the asc-hifi website together with excelent graphics.
To find the reflection points, sit at your listening position and have someone walk along the side wall, holding a mirror close to the wall. When you can see the speaker in the mirror, you've found the point.
If you listen to acoustic music, following the above mentioned tricks will give you a nice surprise with better imaging, a soundstage according to the recording (instead of allways the same soundstage based on your listening room)and a better seperation of the soundstage from the speakers, ideally the speakers will "disappear".

hope to have helped you, kind regards
Max

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