Thread: Connection cables between amp and SACD player

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Post by stvnharr September 23, 2011 (61 of 70)
rammiepie said:

This is relevant to the Chinese puzzle which this initial thread {posted by a "newby" named Lucifer} about connection cables between amp and SACD player has DEVOLVED into!

Care to solve it?

Ha, I stay away from those Chinese puzzles.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 September 23, 2011 (62 of 70)
rammiepie said:


And anyone who has been keeping up with the various Oppos and "modded" 5400 ES should be well aware that these units DO SOUND BETTER via their analogue outs.

So if analogue is dead or gasping for its last breath, that's the biggest crock of sh*t I've EVER heard....PERIOD!

Wake up people: FACTS ARE FACTS.........

The "facts" in your system to your taste may not be the same as others experience in their own systems. Unlike you, I have not said nor do I intend to say that my own preferences should be everyone's. As always in audio, YMMV.

Post by Euell Neverno September 23, 2011 (63 of 70)
stvnharr said:


In most all non passive preamps, which is most preamps, the circuitry is as follows: signal level control by an attenuator or potentiometer, which is then followed by a gain stage circuit. The two are separate parts of the unit. Gain is set by the ratio of resistors in the circuit topology going from +v to -v in the circuit. Gain is a fixed item determined by a formula.
As always there are exceptions, and there are a few preamps that have switchable gain settings, say 3db or 6db. I have even heard once of a design that had a variable gain circuit. And I also know of a preamp with the attenuation between the gain stage and buffer, but only one.

Also, gain stages are not confined to just preamps. There can be small gain stages in player output circuitries, and there is always a rather large gain stage at the input in power amplifiers.

Just to add a little more confusion to this issue, many years ago I had a monaural Bell integrated amplifier (twin 6V6 output stage) that had both gain AND volume controls. The gain potentiometer had a VERY significant impact on tonal characteristics and the volume control did not. But, we are talking about antiques. You say that the volume control of an active preamp typically is in the circuit before the gain stages, rather than after, I have read otherwise, but I'll leave that to electronics experts. Regardless, as you point out, gain in modern preamplifiers is fixed, with the exception of some units that can switch between fixed high and low gain.

The design and quality of volume controls is apparently quite important to output.

Post by Ubertrout September 23, 2011 (64 of 70)
I just want to say...this whole conversation is why I do NOT consider myself an audiophile. I'm an enthusiast, and I purchase SACDs when they are available at a reasonable price because I've found the difference on my sound system is profound (AVR-driven with a fairly cheap set of 5.1 Polk Audio speakers, albeit with an upgraded sub), even in stereo. I've further found that I prefer the sound of analog interconnects running from my cheap Sony 595 to HDMI from an Oppo, but the difference isn't that great.

So, I'm sticking with my recommendation of Blue Jeans, with the caveat I made. It's really the same thing that makes some people thrilled with Oppo models, and others blase. In fact - let's call it the Oppo test for audiophile grade - would you use an unmodified Oppo BDP-93 (not a 95) as your main player, or not?

Of course, I may be the only person here on the "yes" side of the equation :p

Post by Euell Neverno September 23, 2011 (65 of 70)
rammiepie said:

This is relevant to the Chinese puzzle which this initial thread {posted by a "newby" named Lucifer} about connection cables between amp and SACD player has DEVOLVED into!

Care to solve it?

There are as many solutions as cable manufacturers. One contributor suggested Cardas Golden Reference, a reputedly warm and most certainly expensive cable. If you must choose only one interconnect and are concerned about price, I would recommend the Merlin Mozart, a British-manufactured cable that is a bit hard to obtain in the US (there is a North American distributor plus Ebay). I can also recommend the Merlin Verdi. There are certainly more expensive cables and probably better ones, but the Merlin products should satisfy most.

Post by stvnharr September 23, 2011 (66 of 70)
Euell Neverno said:

You say that the volume control of an active preamp typically is in the circuit before the gain stages, rather than after, I have read otherwise, but I'll leave that to electronics experts. Regardless, as you point out, gain in modern preamplifiers is fixed, with the exception of some units that can switch between fixed high and low gain.

The design and quality of volume controls is apparently quite important to output.

Euell,
The signal attenuator is by itself and not really a circuit per se. Reviewers tend to not know electronics or circuits very well at all. Sure you can put the level control between the gain stage and buffer, but it depends on the voltages and how the stages are coupled, and can be tricky. It is never tricky at the input of the unit, and that's why it is generally there. Also, preamplifier gain is generally fairly low. If there is a gain switch setting, the settings are typically 3 db or 6db, and maybe another one. While 6db is twice that of 3db, it's still just 3db more than 3db, and not much of a difference.

You can spend a lot of money on a signal attenuator, as in a few hundred dollars. That's why most units use a low cost potentiometer for the job. Yes it's important as the whole of the music signal goes thru it.

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 September 23, 2011 (67 of 70)
stvnharr said:

Euell,
The signal attenuator is by itself and not really a circuit per se. Reviewers tend to not know electronics or circuits very well at all. Sure you can put the level control between the gain stage and buffer, but it depends on the voltages and how the stages are coupled, and can be tricky. It is never tricky at the input of the unit, and that's why it is generally there. Also, preamplifier gain is generally fairly low. If there is a gain switch setting, the settings are typically 3 db or 6db, and maybe another one. While 6db is twice that of 3db, it's still just 3db more than 3db, and not much of a difference.

You can spend a lot of money on a signal attenuator, as in a few hundred dollars. That's why most units use a low cost potentiometer for the job. Yes it's important as the whole of the music signal goes thru it.

Agreed. But, to further complicate the issue, there are volume controls that operate entirely in the digital domain by merely shifting bits prior to the output DAC, like the one in my prepro - 32 bits, in my case. That avoids many of the issues you describe in analog circuits, and it does its work colorlessly, efficiently and inexpensively.

Post by rammiepie September 23, 2011 (68 of 70)
Fitzcaraldo215 said:

The "facts" in your system to your taste may not be the same as others experience in their own systems. Unlike you, I have not said nor do I intend to say that my own preferences should be everyone's. As always in audio, YMMV.

Fitz, I am using HDMI for FIOS, NuForce OPPO BDP83 SE and Sony 5400ES connections to my Meridian ... in the future, I plan to upgrade the Oppo and utilize analogue interconnects in lieu of the HDMI. In MY particular case, the Meridian 800 DVD~A via 3 proprietary coax cables betters both the SONY and OPPO by a WIDE, WIDE margin which is why I have always been lusting after Meridian to produce a multichannel SACD player. It's just the way it is and I have NO doubt that SACD via players like Playback Design and dCs would equal my 800 in terms of Sonic excellence....but they're still, stereo only (unless one wants to stack two Playback Designs for 4.0). I KNOW what I hear from my Marantz SA112s via analogue outputs and for a machine which is NOT particularly whacky in price (I paid $2500 for mine) it really sounds incredible...wish I could stack two of those for mch (but not, of course 5.1).......but unlike the Playback Design, that's simply not possible.

Post by BCNaples February 4, 2012 (69 of 70)
you guys 'sound' like you know what's what! I saw a thread earlier re: a 5400Es which is a tad newer than my Sony 90ES. Perhaps you'd care to comment/ provide me a little direction:

I have a Sony STR-DA90ESG and a Sony DVP-NC685V (CD, DVD, SA-CD) player and have never utilized the SA-CD capabilities (shame on me, and I know what I have been missing!). Despite countless hours in the manuals and on the web I cannot find best practice/ best audio connection information for these two units. I recently bought a new BD player, so I intend to only use the NC685V for CD and SACD playback. The 685 has optical and coaxial digital outs and 5.1 channel (and 2-chanel stereo) analog out. The 90Es does not have 5.1 channel inputs.

Suggestions, advice and direction most appreciated getting these two singing together!

Post by Kal Rubinson February 4, 2012 (70 of 70)
BCNaples said:

you guys 'sound' like you know what's what! I saw a thread earlier re: a 5400Es which is a tad newer than my Sony 90ES. Perhaps you'd care to comment/ provide me a little direction:

I have a Sony STR-DA90ESG and a Sony DVP-NC685V (CD, DVD, SA-CD) player and have never utilized the SA-CD capabilities (shame on me, and I know what I have been missing!). Despite countless hours in the manuals and on the web I cannot find best practice/ best audio connection information for these two units. I recently bought a new BD player, so I intend to only use the NC685V for CD and SACD playback. The 685 has optical and coaxial digital outs and 5.1 channel (and 2-chanel stereo) analog out. The 90Es does not have 5.1 channel inputs.

Suggestions, advice and direction most appreciated getting these two singing together!

There is only one obvious solution for you: Use the analog stereo output of either player and an analog stereo input on the AVR. Unfortunately, your AVR seems to re-digitize all analog inputs and at 48kHz. As a result, you may not be able to enjoy any of the advantages of SACD with that setup.

Kal

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