Thread: How does one find REAL multichannel MUSIC recordings?

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Post by boompies February 22, 2010 (1 of 15)
Hi to all of you music and/or audiofile addicts!
I'm starting this new thread 'cause there are over 200 pages with them here at the most respected SACD forum, that it would really take ages for me to find an answer to my question. Not saying there's a lot of interesting topics to read about! By the way; I'm also one of you 'addicts' or 'hifidelity afficionados': A life without music is a wasted life!
To be honest; the ONLY reason for me to aquire SACD's is the MULTICHANNEL MUSIC possibility. With this I really mean FIVE CHANNELS OF MUSIC and not as so many a production that has left the factory with only 'noises' or 'effects' or 'room abiance' or 'audience hand-clapping' on the extra channels. That has nothing to do with the SACD multichannel basic filosophy and is a waste of time and money, as far as I see it. That's what you get on DVD's most of the time, but I expect something better from SACD's.

My point is:
The problem is that (for me anyway) this seems not to be the case at all for all socalled 'multicahnnel recordings' on SACD. Sometimes there's NO musical information AT ALL in these 'extra' channels, even the disc cover states that it is a multichannel recording! It is a shame there's no consent amongst companies about what to consider a multitrack recording or not.
SO MY QUESTION IS: Does anyone know how to differ between those 'real' and 'fake' multichannel recordings? Is it possible for this comprehensive site to make a listing of these 'real multichannel recordings of music'?

I have absolutely no problems whatsoever to listen to 'ordinary' 2-channel (stereo) CD's on my 'reasonably high-end' equipment (Yamaha DVD-S2700 multiplayer, Sony TA-P9000ES ANALOG multichannel pre-amplifier and ACTIVE Fostex PM0.5 monitors with TWO Fostex SUB's), so I don't feel the need to acquire SACD's for their higher resolution just for those two channels. I'm also quite happy with the 'low resolution' audio that comes from my Rega 3 record player; I think my system is quite capable to reproduce what's recorded. I've noticed that the biggest differences between 'good' or 'bad' sound is depending on what the audio engineer has been doing on 'the other side': in the recording studio. There's obvious a lot of 'shit' around, on all media and most people seems to be satisfied with that, looking at the laptop listeners and people on the bus with raw-cheap earplugs, but fancy Ipods. I, on the contrary, need the thrill or experience of what I consider to be 'good' music and was once blown away by a 'vintage' Earth and Fire recording remixed into five musical channels. My favourite disc at the moment is Spiro Gyra-In modern Times, that's the way it should be done!
Sorry to be that dull, but I would really appreciate any positive response in this respect.
Thanx!

Post by Fitzcaraldo215 February 22, 2010 (2 of 15)
I do not know what your musical tastes are. Most SACD's are classical, and the multichannel ones generally do not have "musical information" in the surround channels. A tiny minority do, and I for one generally avoid them. What these Mch recordings do have is ambience information in the surround channels. This makes all the difference in making these recordings sound much closer than any stereo to the way real music sounds in a hall.

If you are looking for pop/rock mixes where instruments have been panned into surround channels, I am afraid I cannot help you there.

Post by Windsurfer February 22, 2010 (3 of 15)
boompies said:

To be honest; the ONLY reason for me to aquire SACD's is the MULTICHANNEL MUSIC possibility. With this I really mean FIVE CHANNELS OF MUSIC and not as so many a production that has left the factory with only 'noises' or 'effects' or 'room abiance' or 'audience hand-clapping' on the extra channels.


Sometimes there's NO musical information AT ALL in these 'extra' channels, even the disc cover states that it is a multichannel recording! It is a shame there's no consent amongst companies about what to consider a multitrack recording or not.
SO MY QUESTION IS: Does anyone know how to differ between those 'real' and 'fake' multichannel recordings? Is it possible for this comprehensive site to make a listing of these 'real multichannel recordings of music'?

This notion you have of "REAL" multi-channel recordings leaves me somewhat non-plussed.

Let me tell you a little story:

About 8 or 9 years ago I was given a regular CD for christmas of Hilary Hahn playing the Brahms violin concerto. Now I guess you are not (at least right now) interested in the Brahms violin concerto - or any violin concerto for that matter. But bear with me please!

I loved the performance of this concerto I have had a great reverence for since I was about 15 yrs old. I noticed that it was also available in a single layer SACD and decided to purchase that to take to audio stores to use to audition what (at that time) was a new phenomenon called SACD. I had hoped that there would be a much greater clarity - less congestion, less distortion - offered on this new medium. We went to a "Tweeter Etc" store with our CD and SACD and asked to hear it in their demo room. The equipment was reasonably good but not outstanding. Floor-standing Vienna Acoustics speakers were set up with nice but as I say not outstanding electronics.

We listened first to the introductory measures of the Brahms, first in CD then in SACD - stereo. Frankly I was disappointed. I hardly could tell any difference between the two. Neither sounded to me like live music does in a good concert hall. I signaled the saleman and said I had heard enough and that I wasn't impressed. He said OK, now lets listen in multi-channel.

The opening measures again and my wife and I turned with astonished expressions on our faces. My wife surprised me because I had been unaware that she knew and understood the "lingo". She exclaimed:

WOW! I never heard a sound stage like that before! Its like the walls fell away and we are in a concert hall!

Instrumental textures were rendered in a way that sounded much more life like. It was wonderful! We were sold!

Now I have a collection of between 7 and 8 hundred SACDs - most of them are the multi-channel recordings you seem to think are FAKE! They are not fake, they employ the technique to capture the acoustics of the recorded space and create the illusion that the listener has been transported to the concert hall. The sense of scale and dimensionality as an orchestra suddenly moves from "p" or "f" to "fff" is magnificent, it is simply not achievable in stereo. It works very very well!

This holds whether you are talking about a big band jazz group, a small ensemble, a folk singer with a guitar. It applies to all *acoustic* music.

This is why I love SACD. What you are asking for is - unless the composer asks for this effect, voices or instruments to come from the rear or sides - to my way of thinking, a gimmick. It is fakey. I don't like it. I will never buy it. Sorry.

Post by rammiepie February 22, 2010 (4 of 15)
The TACET Real Moving Surround series of SACDs capture descreet surround info and sound wonderful. For a full list (and on sale during the month of February) Go to Crochet (located in England) one of SA-CD.net's supporters, hit SACD then go to multi-buys (list of discounted music for that particular month). As an American., I find that Crochet, in most cases, is cheaper than buying here in the USA and the shipping charges and services are first rate. This website, when you type in TACET, will also give you a list of available SACDs and in some cases reviews. Since your player is a universal one, TACET has also released music in discreet DVD-Audio surround (that list will be available at Crochet, also. Some of the DVD-A's have longer player times and for reviews go to Audiophile Audition (they just reviewed two DVD-A's). Also 2L Productions located in Norway have discreet SACDs some of them coupled with blu-ray discs. Again, type in 2L Productions on this website for a complete list. The Trondheim Solistene: Divertimenti is a good example of discreet M/c surround at its very best. For POP Music, Telarc and Heads-Up can be had for cheap prices (new and used) at Amazon.Com. Just type in Telarc or Heads-Up SACD and some can be had new as low as $1.99 + shipping.And for a real treat, The Who's TOMMY, as remastered by Pete Townshend himself from his own personal mastertapes is brilliant and it will appear that the musicians are IN the room with you. Also, ALL the Elton Johns (especially Good-bye Yellow Brick Road) are incredibly discreet as is Layla where you can finally hear Duane Allman's slide guitar discreetly. The Carpenters Greatest Hits sounds incredible and is very discreet......the list goes on and on. SACD is more than just a sonic upgrade: in multi-channel surround, it's a revelation...provided your system front to back is properly imaged and can handle the higher resolution of the format.

Post by jakeroux February 22, 2010 (5 of 15)
Judging by the discs you mention, I'm guessing your interest lie primarily in the pop/rock/jazz area. If that is the case, I believe you will find that most pop/rock/jazz titles (excluding performances of live concerts, which tend to use the surrounds for the audience response) which advertise themselves as multichannel, will, indeed, have musical info in all five channels. However, the choices are certainly more limited in these genres (and the discussion and interest on this forum more scarce).

A few that you may want to try:
* any of the Elton John SACD titles
* Norah Jones - Come Away With Me
* Roxy Music - Avalon
* Dire Straits - Brothers in Arms
* Steely Dan - Gaucho
* Weather Report - Mysterious Traveler
* Chris Botti - Night Sessions
* Sting - Brand New Day
* and although it's DVD-A, not SACD, if you have not heard the Beatles' "Love" in MCH, that would be worth a listen if you enjoy their material.

Hope that helps, and best of luck.

Post by Kal Rubinson February 22, 2010 (6 of 15)
boompies said:

My point is:
The problem is that (for me anyway) this seems not to be the case at all for all socalled 'multicahnnel recordings' on SACD. Sometimes there's NO musical information AT ALL in these 'extra' channels, even the disc cover states that it is a multichannel recording! It is a shame there's no consent amongst companies about what to consider a multitrack recording or not.
SO MY QUESTION IS: Does anyone know how to differ between those 'real' and 'fake' multichannel recordings? Is it possible for this comprehensive site to make a listing of these 'real multichannel recordings of music'?

Ah. So what you really want are FAKE multichannel recordings since, in real life, music is rarely ever performed in that way. But that's OK and some have suggested a few. Good luck.

Kal

Post by The Seventh Taylor February 22, 2010 (7 of 15)
boompies said:

To be honest; the ONLY reason for me to aquire SACD's is the MULTICHANNEL MUSIC possibility. With this I really mean FIVE CHANNELS OF MUSIC and not as so many a production that has left the factory with only 'noises' or 'effects' or 'room abiance' or 'audience hand-clapping' on the extra channels. That has nothing to do with the SACD multichannel basic filosophy and is a waste of time and money, as far as I see it.

While my personal interest in SACD is also motivated mainly by multichannel rather than high-resolution audio and I generally appreciate soundscapes with 'agressive' use of the surround channels that you can do with studio music, I can testify that most people I know who were involved with the conception of the SACD format over 10 years ago are very much in favour of the typical use of multichannel for purely and naturally reproducing the acoustics of an original performance. Thankfully the format provides freedom to the creative artists to use multichannel as they see fit but there is no basic philosophy that dicates or even recommends the type of 5.1-channel music you're after.

ETA: Kal is right and it's very ironic: the multichannel music you like is arguably fake, in the sense that all studio music is only mixed this way, not recorded this way.

Notably exception: This title Jienat: Mira (on SACD+BD) claims to be the first non-classical music truly recorded in multichannel, using an array of 5 microphones.

Post by rammiepie February 22, 2010 (8 of 15)
Seventh Taylor, thanks for the heads-up on this disc [Jienat: Mira]. CD baby has it for $27.90 and one can preview the album there and read about how it was recorded. The blu-ray is music only and consists of percussion and voices. Will definitely add this to my world music collection of SACDs. But one thing I must point out is that the TACET real surround series both on DVD-A and SACD (especially the Beethoven Cycle) was recorded with the orchestra arrayed in a circle around the microphones.....I'm sure Beethoven did not have this in mind when he wrote his infamous symphonies and maybe it is a gimmick.....but it sure sounds nice!

Post by The Seventh Taylor February 22, 2010 (9 of 15)
rammiepie said:

one thing I must point out is that the TACET real surround series both on DVD-A and SACD (especially the Beethoven Cycle) was recorded with the orchestra arrayed in a circle around the microphones.

Correct, but it's classical music. That's why they claim "the first _non-classical_ music recording".

Post by Disbeliever February 23, 2010 (10 of 15)
Teresa take note of Windsurfer

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