Thread: Time for a vote on the rating system

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Post by LC December 23, 2004 (21 of 42)
Dan Popp said:

In my case, it would be hard to know whether the review was helpful until I bought (or otherwise heard) the SACD and could make an informed judgement about its accuracy.

This of course is the only perfectly consistent way to use the system. How can I know whether anything at all in this review is helpful until I buy the thing and find out for myself? Even the most purely descriptive information in it may, after all, simply be incorrect. If you vote "Yes" before you confirm this either way by obtaining the item for yourself, you're really answering the question "Does this review seem helpful?" So the review system becomes entirely about third parties who have yet to purchase the item. The question is really "Do you, an owner of the item under review, agree that the judgements expressed here are at least fair and the descriptive content not misleading?"

Post by zeus December 23, 2004 (22 of 42)
LC said:

How can I know whether anything at all in this review is helpful until I buy the thing and find out for myself?

I think you're being too restrictive here. To me, a review is helpful if it gives me a feel for whether a disc is worth considering or not (though only I can decide whether I'll like it so I take full responsibility for this), or tells me something about the music/performance, or helps me to be a more critical listener. I don't have to agree with the overall assessment, but I do ask that the arguments are put cogently.

Post by raffells December 24, 2004 (23 of 42)
zeus said:
. To me, a review is helpful if it gives me a feel for whether a disc is worth considering or not (though only I can decide whether I'll like it so I take full responsibility for this), or tells me something about the music/performance,. I don't have to agree with the overall assessment, but I do ask that the arguments are put cogently.

Totally agree with you Zeus on the above (creep creep) The review guidelines are quite clear from the beginning and I suggest those not happy should re read them again....I probably only buy some stuff based on the info and guidelines written by these amatuer reviewers...I already am part of the Grammy forum and have spent a lotta years doing technical reviews with the constraints thatit brings..I have learnt to take criticism even if it wasnt deserved !..hint....The reviews in this forum seem based on serious sacd music listeners mostly and I for one feel as though Ive taken a lot from them without putting too much back.......I wish more would contribute but I spotted a comment that indicated someone was unwilling because they didnt feel competent enough ? and were worried about feedback,,,,,Surely (no thats not her name) if you listen to an sacd and can judge its merit or not then you are competent....I think This is where the moaners and high handed critics are doing damage and should think about this before reacting......,,I will add a few more as I dont agree slightly with a couple of reviews (nearly didnt purchase the Harrison one)and I do have plenty of sacds that havent been reviewed on this site....(Note Xmas listening so please allow for alcohol influenced predjudices)
More important I wish everyone her a happy Xmas (even Dan) LOL and the last post before chrimbo has arrived so thats it for now...The only shop near North Wales that has sacd/dvda has buried them in a cupboard because they were not selling so that is definitly it till after xmas,,, Dave

Post by peteyspambucket September 30, 2005 (24 of 42)
It's been a year since this rating system has been implemented, and I want to weigh in on it. The community in this forum is so small that the "helpful" ratings have become irrelevant. The helpful ratings seem to be used by the community to spitefully voice disagreement rather than measure helpfulness. Having just reviewed The Piano and getting a (1 of 3) for a review I spent a long time thinking about, I'm at a loss to know why the rating went that way. There hadn't been a review in 2 years (or more) since it came out and I thought I would write one. I mean, it's a movie soundtrack. How deep can you get? Sheesh. I now wish I could just remove it altogether since it was so unhelpful. In fact, I think I'll go and do that now...

Since the implementation of the rating system, I have found that right after I write a review, I am constantly checking for this helpfulness rating as though it were some kind of score on my writing ability, and then I tend to take it personally when I get a negative rating. I'm doing my best to write clearly and to be helpful with my reviews, and I have found that the fear of getting negative helpfulness ratings is seriously keeping me from writing more reviews such as that for The Piano.

I no longer think that the helpful rating is valuable on this site. I believe it's valuable on Amazon, but not here, because, in contrast, Amazon gets HUNDREDS of reviews for some titles so the sorting by helpfulness matters. In a site like SACD.net, we don't see overwhelming numbers of of reviews per title, the ratings are becoming a detriment to reviewing in an increasingly high-handed, hostile environment, and the sorting doesn't seem to work anyway.

I'd be interested to know whether I was alone in feeling this way, and to hear what others who have voiced their reservations about this feature (in this thread) feel now, about a year later.

Post by nickc September 30, 2005 (25 of 42)
peteyspambucket said:

It's been a year since this rating system has been implemented, and I want to weigh in on it. The community in this forum is so small that the "helpful" ratings have become irrelevant. The helpful ratings seem to be used by the community to spitefully voice disagreement rather than measure helpfulness. Having just reviewed The Piano and getting a (1 of 3) for a review I spent a long time thinking about, I'm at a loss to know why the rating went that way. There hadn't been a review in 2 years (or more) since it came out and I thought I would write one. I mean, it's a movie soundtrack. How deep can you get? Sheesh. I now wish I could just remove it altogether since it was so unhelpful. In fact, I think I'll go and do that now...

Since the implementation of the rating system, I have found that right after I write a review, I am constantly checking for this helpfulness rating as though it were some kind of score on my writing ability, and then I tend to take it personally when I get a negative rating. I'm doing my best to write clearly and to be helpful with my reviews, and I have found that the fear of getting negative helpfulness ratings is seriously keeping me from writing more reviews such as that for The Piano.

I no longer think that the helpful rating is valuable on this site. I believe it's valuable on Amazon, but not here, because, in contrast, Amazon gets HUNDREDS of reviews for some titles so the sorting by helpfulness matters. In a site like SACD.net, we don't see overwhelming numbers of of reviews per title, the ratings are becoming a detriment to reviewing in an increasingly high-handed, hostile environment, and the sorting doesn't seem to work anyway.

I'd be interested to know whether I was alone in feeling this way, and to hear what others who have voiced their reservations about this feature (in this thread) feel now, about a year later.

To be honest I give every review a helpful rating unless it is total rubbish - and thankfully there are hardly any of that ilk here.
Not to be too precious but there's not enough of us to go scaring people away form reviewing discs!
Cheers
Nick

Post by BigC September 30, 2005 (26 of 42)
I write this as a relative newcomer to SACD as a format, and as a novice of classical pieces. This is my opinion of the review system and the way I am using it. This may not suit everyone but it works for me.

I am happy to know that there are people in the forum who are a lot more knowledgable about subjects, technical, musical specifics, history etc. and I am glad to be able to draw on that knowledge in order to advance my own listening pleasure.

For a review to be "helpful" to me it needs to be a review of the music, and the more that a reviewer can explain about the music the better. I am looking for words that will make me interested (or otherwise) in that particular piece of music on that particular disc. This may help me in making the decision to part with my hard earned cash or look elsewhere. This, for me, is more important with classical pieces than contemporary as I know what I like with contemporary music. With classical or jazz pieces etc. I am looking for some guidance and education. Even so, I may decide that I know what I want/like and ignore a negative review anyway. I suppose this should have therefore made the review "unhelpful" to me as I didn't agree with it. However it may still have helped me to be more aware of the music to which I am listening.

Because of these points I would not normally comment (vote) on a review which contained a knowledgable assessment of a disc (classical or contemporary).

For a review to be "unhelpful" the reviewer needs to say things like "Sonics good, nice performance" or similar. This information may be correct but does not help someone like me so in these circumstances. I have voted about the helpfulness of some reviews that are like this.

As you will see I have not reviewed any discs. There are three main reasons for this,
1)I tend to buy what I already know I like in contemporary music, and pretty much ignore the reviews, I have perhaps assumed others would do the same.
2)with respect to classical music, I am still feeling overwhelmned by the kind of knowledge and experience most of the other contributers demonstrate, this is beyond my own and at this point I am not sure that I would add value to the review system for these pieces.
3) due to the relative budget of my audio equipment it would be wrong for me to try and suggest that a piece is sonically good or bad.

Someone reading this may consider that I am drawing from the forum and not contributing, however I would ask that you give me time and let's see what happens.

Having said all of the above, in both classical and contemorary terms, I have expanded my musical tastes and am glad to have moved into SACDs and this forum.

Thanks

Post by Peter September 30, 2005 (27 of 42)
peteyspambucket said:

Having just reviewed The Piano and getting a (1 of 3) for a review I spent a long time thinking about, I'm at a loss to know why the rating went that way. There hadn't been a review in 2 years (or more) since it came out and I thought I would write one. I mean, it's a movie soundtrack. How deep can you get? Sheesh. I now wish I could just remove it altogether since it was so unhelpful. In fact, I think I'll go and do that now...

I'm really sorry you had to do that, but understand your reasons for doing so. It's not the first time by any means that I've seen negative reactions to good positive reviews, and I can only assume that you are a victim of mischief making.

Post by peteyspambucket September 30, 2005 (28 of 42)
BigC said:

As you will see I have not reviewed any discs. There are three main reasons for this,
1)I tend to buy what I already know I like in contemporary music, and pretty much ignore the reviews, I have perhaps assumed others would do the same.
2)with respect to classical music, I am still feeling overwhelmned by the kind of knowledge and experience most of the other contributers demonstrate, this is beyond my own and at this point I am not sure that I would add value to the review system for these pieces.
3) due to the relative budget of my audio equipment it would be wrong for me to try and suggest that a piece is sonically good or bad.

My case in point exactly. In my opinion, your reviews DO matter, and you should feel at ease with writing a review here regardless of your musical experience or the equipment you own. But lately, I feel that I'm in the minority in thinking that, and the "helpfulness" ratings really accentuate that.

Post by tream September 30, 2005 (29 of 42)
peteyspambucket said:

My case in point exactly. In my opinion, your reviews DO matter, and you should feel at ease with writing a review here regardless of your musical experience or the equipment you own. But lately, I feel that I'm in the minority in thinking that, and the "helpfulness" ratings really accentuate that.

Petey, even though you and I often have different views, I will fight for your right to express your viewpoint, etc. and ad nauseum. Anyway, first let me say you did a very nice job on the "Falstaff" review. I've been on the fence for some time whether to buy that or not; your review has helped me get off the fence (which is a painful place to be, with the posts and all).

Personally, the only reviews I've downchecked are the "DeSelby" type and a few that I found ludicrous - no attempt to be constructive. None of yours, by the way, and was disappointed to see you withdraw one (I hadn't read it, so no idea of the content).

Reviews should not only state conclusions, but they should also state why the reviewer has reached a particular conclusion, and also in what context. My antipathy to the Beethoven conducting of Furtwangler is clear to a few, bu if I use the terms "Furtwanglerian" in a review of a recording of Beethoven I would need to put that into context. Attorneys call this "building foundation", and while I'm not an attorney, there is a point to this. We have preferences and tastes and don't all hear the same things the same way. This is not an objective hobby.

Post by zeus September 30, 2005 (30 of 42)
peteyspambucket said:

Sheesh. I now wish I could just remove it altogether since it was so unhelpful. In fact, I think I'll go and do that now...

Well, I just gave it a negative rating. How helpful is a review that says "I removed this unhelpful review" :-). Some people are too sensitive. Rather you either stick to your guns or look at your review to see how it could be bettered. I should add that I can see who gives what rating to each review and will do a mass delete if it looks like vindictiveness.

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