add to wish list | library


2 of 2 recommend this,
would you recommend it?

yes | no

Support this site by purchasing from these vendors using the paid links below. As an Amazon Associate SA-CD.net earns from qualifying purchases.
 
amazon.ca
amazon.co.uk
amazon.com
amazon.de
 
amazon.fr
amazon.it
 
jpc

Discussion: Beethoven: Symphonies - Karajan (1963)

Posts: 17
Page: prev 1 2

Post by Chris August 27, 2014 (11 of 17)
ramesh said:

Hi Chris,
I have the SACD set, and recently compared it to this blu ray which a friend brought over.

I noted that Karajan's biographer Richard Osborne wrote this recording sounded 'modern' at the time of its release in 1963, being 'daringly lit' or words to this effect.




I imagine Karajan as a 'legato' conductor, aiming to smooth over and blend textures or phrasing to a greater extent than others. Generally he was able to achieve this while still retaining propulsive energy, though this aspect diminished in many of his later recordings. This extended to what is presented in terms of sound quality, as well as in the BPO's playing. Hence some complaints, particularly in his recordings for DG [ all composers ] that many passages for brass or timpani were not as clearly audible as in recordings by others.

Hello ramesh,
regarding balancing and SQ I agree a lot. I gradually learned to avoid recordings labeled "well lit" in Gramophone, they generally suck balance wise imo.But although I still admire the playing of the BPO on this set I have more modern recordings that I now like more. From the LP era I play both Klemperer, Isserstedt,Haitink and even Solti's Beethoven now and then. And my most recent set is the Barenboim leading an enthusiastic youth orchestra in the "music for all" Decca hi res download, which is the one I listen to most often nowadays.
But their ninth is not the best in that series.
Karajan still rules in the last movement of the ninth for me .
Both there and in the seventh he is one of the few who whips his orchestra close to Beethoven's metronome speeds,especially in the ninth last movement presto and later in 1977 even in the 7th.
And he had Gundula Janowitz.
Although Karajan is often blamed for the reticent brass and timpani balance on many of his recordings, I think that part of the blame ought to be laid on the "multimic" engineer Hermanns at DGG who is also on record as saying Karajan basically always let him put his mics where he wanted . Wolfgang Gülich at EMI who used half the number of mics as quote "the competition" IMO got much better far more realistic results from the Philharmonie . I played the still amazingly well balanced and very realistically recorded Il Trovatore yesterday and both timpani and brass are there in full force.
And the same applies to most of the luckily quite a few other releases Karajan and the BPO made for EMI in the 70s.
I would say if one wants to hear Karajan and his Berliners as close as possible to how they sounded live forget most of what they did for DGG and instead listen to their DECCA and EMI recordings.
Karajan's Beethoven was how I got to know the symphonies in my youth. But it is his opera recordings that I turn to most often these days.

Post by Daland August 28, 2014 (12 of 17)
I recently watched a video recording of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony dating from the early 1960s, with Karajan conducting the Berlin Philharmonic. What I found most intriguing was that he used an orchestra of colossal size. It included a huge string section, quadruple woodwind, eight horns, four trumpets and three trombones. When I attended a concert where Abbado performed the same symphony with the Berlin Philharmonic in the mid-1990s, the orchestra was probably only half the size.
Does anybody happen to know whether Karajan adopted the same approach for his audio recordings in 1963?

Post by Joseph Ponessa August 28, 2014 (13 of 17)
Chris said:

I wonder if it is still possible to get it somewhere ?

I think I remember checking and finding that Karajan's 1970 live recording of Beethoven's Ninth had been re-released by someone. I can't recheck that for you right now, because my big desktop computer died last month, and I am currently using my old laptop which doesn't find things very fast.

You also asked if I still have the SACD of the 1962 cycle to compare with the BD-A, and the answer is yes. I do hear the BD-A as the definitively superior transfer.

Post by Chris August 29, 2014 (14 of 17)
Joseph Ponessa said:

I think I remember checking and finding that Karajan's 1970 live recording of Beethoven's Ninth had been re-released by someone. I can't recheck that for you right now, because my big desktop computer died last month, and I am currently using my old laptop which doesn't find things very fast.

You also asked if I still have the SACD of the 1962 cycle to compare with the BD-A, and the answer is yes. I do hear the BD-A as the definitively superior transfer.

Thanks a lot Joseph Ponessa,
I'd love to get the Wiener Festwochen 1970 live recording, but after playing both the LP and the SACD of the ninth from 1962 last night I think I'm ok with those. I still like the performance but the recording is definitely showing its age both on LP and SACD.
Not too badly balanced,rather a bit cavernous and with thin scrawny string sound in tutti passages above Forte.
But I wont get the bluray.
Ironically Solti's 1972 DECCA Chicago recording is still one of the very best recordings technically that I have ever heard of the ninth. What pity that he didn't have Gundula Janowitz.
But my Mobile Fidelity Orginal master half speed transfer double LP set sounds absolutely magnificent with warm realistic string sound and plenty of air and a huge both wide and deep soundstage.Imo it is clearly better than any digital recording of the ninth I have heard.
And the performance isn't half bad either.
Of modern digital recordings I only own one on disc and that is the Vänska Minnesota on BIS which sounds uneven to say the least. And if Karajan was "a legato conductor" as Ramesh put it, I would say that Vänska's is the weirdest stop and go, stacatto take I have heard of the ninth after Norrington's.
Imho either everyone from Furtwängler,Toscanini,Karajan,Klemperer,Walter, Hatink and Böhm etc etc, are wrong or the two latter are?
Everyone else has,accounting for differences of emphasis here and there,a steady pace and pulse that makes sense,but neither Norrington nor Vänska has to my ears.

Cheers and enjoy your blurays,they are still one of the great Beethoven sets imo,Chris

Post by Joseph Ponessa August 29, 2014 (15 of 17)
Chris said:

Ironically Solti's 1966 DECCA Chicago recording is still one of the very best recordings technically that I have ever heard of the ninth. What pity that he didn't have Gundula Janowitz.
But my Mobile Fidelity Orginal master half speed transfer double LP set sounds absolutely magnificent with warm realistic string sound and plenty of air and a huge both wide and deep soundstage.Imo it is clearly better than any digital recording of the ninth I have heard.

Of modern digital recordings I only own one on disc and that is the Vänska Minnesota on BIS which sounds uneven to say the least.

That wasn't Solti's May 1972 DECCA Chicago recording with Lorengar, Minton, Burrows and Talvala by any chance? I have a recent KZHD Mastering CD rerelease which is very well done. Am playing it now.

Of modern multi-channel recordings, I recommend Thielemann on BDV and De Vriend on SACD. I heard a complete Thielemann Beethoven cycle live in 1995 and was impressed by the serious way he treated all nine symphonies. De Vriend, coming out of the Bach tradition, brings out Beethoven's polyphony, which is underestimated.

Post by Chris August 29, 2014 (16 of 17)
Joseph Ponessa said:

That wasn't Solti's May 1972 DECCA Chicago recording with Lorengar, Minton, Burrows and Talvala by any chance? I have a recent KZHD Mastering CD rerelease which is very well done. Am playing it now.

Of modern multi-channel recordings, I recommend Thielemann on BDV and De Vriend on SACD. I heard a complete Thielemann Beethoven cycle live in 1995 and was impressed by the serious way he treated all nine symphonies. De Vriend, coming out of the Bach tradition, brings out Beethoven's polyphony, which is underestimated.

OOps ,sorry yes 1972 not 1966. But for an all round middle of the road interpretation in superb SQ it is a safe bet imho. And I forgot to mention in my list of conductors,who again imho do Beethoven well,Barenboim and his enthusiastic youth orchestra.
Cheers Chris

Post by Joseph Ponessa August 29, 2014 (17 of 17)
Right now, I am auditioning the CDs that came with the Blu-Ray. They are beautiful. My initial reaction is that they are shy of the Blu-Ray but ahead of the SACD. After listening all the way through, I will make some comparisons and get back to you all.
Just returned from a week in Alabama. The weather was very nice for the time of year.

Page: prev 1 2

Closed